1 00:00:21,670 --> 00:00:09,089 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 2 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:24,380 hello and welcome to the skeptic zone 3 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:27,770 for the twentieth of may 2013 show 4 00:00:34,790 --> 00:00:32,489 number 239 Richard Saunders here with 5 00:00:36,890 --> 00:00:34,800 you from Sydney Australia now just a 6 00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:36,900 note to regular skeptic zone listeners 7 00:00:43,009 --> 00:00:40,590 yes this show is late in fact i think in 8 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:43,019 almost five years of the skeptic zone 9 00:00:47,509 --> 00:00:44,850 this is probably the latest one we've 10 00:00:48,740 --> 00:00:47,519 had very good reason for that very good 11 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:48,750 reason coming up at the top of the show 12 00:00:56,119 --> 00:00:52,530 dr. ray chira ports dr. 'he is going to 13 00:00:58,189 --> 00:00:56,129 interview Sonya Pemberton in fact she 14 00:01:00,229 --> 00:00:58,199 just did a little while ago and that's 15 00:01:03,049 --> 00:01:00,239 why we had to hold the show over because 16 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:03,059 of scheduling and then all the rest of 17 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:05,570 it but uh I hope you'll understand 18 00:01:10,149 --> 00:01:08,250 nevertheless Sonya Pemberton's going to 19 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:10,159 be talking about her new documentary 20 00:01:16,820 --> 00:01:14,610 jabbed love fear and vaccines now this 21 00:01:20,929 --> 00:01:16,830 is premiering here in Australia on SBS 22 00:01:24,380 --> 00:01:20,939 TV SBS one on Sunday May the 26th at 23 00:01:26,990 --> 00:01:24,390 eight thirty so that's this sunday 24 00:01:31,730 --> 00:01:27,000 coming up I was very lucky enough to 25 00:01:34,250 --> 00:01:31,740 meet Sonia a month or so back at the fo 26 00:01:36,380 --> 00:01:34,260 the film festival in all emotes in the 27 00:01:39,830 --> 00:01:36,390 Czech Republic and she was very excited 28 00:01:41,900 --> 00:01:39,840 about this documentary jabbed it takes a 29 00:01:46,670 --> 00:01:41,910 look at all sorts of issues involving 30 00:01:51,490 --> 00:01:46,680 vaccination especially it looks at some 31 00:01:55,820 --> 00:01:51,500 of the adverse reactions to vaccination 32 00:01:58,850 --> 00:01:55,830 well worth viewing coming up on SBS this 33 00:02:00,860 --> 00:01:58,860 weekend this Sunday anyway dr. rachy in 34 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:00,870 a moment we'll be chatting to Sonya 35 00:02:05,660 --> 00:02:02,730 Pemberton all about her wonderful 36 00:02:09,169 --> 00:02:05,670 documentary jabbed following that it's 37 00:02:11,149 --> 00:02:09,179 my report from mind body spirit or 38 00:02:14,330 --> 00:02:11,159 mind-body wallet as we call it the New 39 00:02:15,770 --> 00:02:14,340 Age festival fair here in Sydney I think 40 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:15,780 it's a bit of a traveling circus and 41 00:02:19,729 --> 00:02:18,090 ends up at other capitals throughout the 42 00:02:23,030 --> 00:02:19,739 year but every six months we have mind 43 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:23,040 body spirit here in Sydney so this time 44 00:02:29,170 --> 00:02:25,290 I wander around with my trusty 45 00:02:32,990 --> 00:02:29,180 microphone giving my thoughts about this 46 00:02:34,380 --> 00:02:33,000 interesting new age fair after that it's 47 00:02:35,730 --> 00:02:34,390 a week in science without 48 00:02:40,290 --> 00:02:35,740 good friends from the Royal Institution 49 00:02:42,180 --> 00:02:40,300 of Australia are I aus ok you and what a 50 00:02:44,309 --> 00:02:42,190 popular segment that is I love it every 51 00:02:46,559 --> 00:02:44,319 week a week in science reminds us all 52 00:02:49,350 --> 00:02:46,569 how much science good science is going 53 00:02:52,650 --> 00:02:49,360 on around the world all the time and 54 00:02:54,510 --> 00:02:52,660 following that its main odd spooky 55 00:02:57,810 --> 00:02:54,520 action Maynard's going to be talking 56 00:03:00,720 --> 00:02:57,820 about anesthesia now what a what an 57 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:00,730 important part of medical science and a 58 00:03:05,640 --> 00:03:02,770 seizure is I've had a number of 59 00:03:07,770 --> 00:03:05,650 operations throughout my life and and 60 00:03:09,270 --> 00:03:07,780 I'm pretty glad there was an aesthetic 61 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:09,280 on hand i'm going to show you that 62 00:03:15,449 --> 00:03:13,330 looking at my appendix scar main our 63 00:03:18,449 --> 00:03:15,459 chats to Professor Tim short about 64 00:03:20,070 --> 00:03:18,459 anesthesia and around off the show we 65 00:03:21,810 --> 00:03:20,080 have a report about a story that sort of 66 00:03:26,270 --> 00:03:21,820 been bubbling around for quite a number 67 00:03:29,250 --> 00:03:26,280 of years in Sydney since about 2006 2007 68 00:03:32,070 --> 00:03:29,260 there's a house are in the west of 69 00:03:35,900 --> 00:03:32,080 Sydney no place called Guildford where 70 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:35,910 it's claimed oil seeps from the walls 71 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:39,570 not just any oil this is miracle oil 72 00:03:46,530 --> 00:03:44,890 messages from beyond the grave and not 73 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:46,540 only oil seeping from the walls that 74 00:03:52,259 --> 00:03:48,850 there's actually writing on the walls 75 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:52,269 and on the ceiling and drawing and 76 00:03:56,250 --> 00:03:54,010 letters and numbers and all sorts of 77 00:03:58,620 --> 00:03:56,260 things a very strange story going along 78 00:04:00,900 --> 00:03:58,630 for many years that report the miracle 79 00:04:03,569 --> 00:04:00,910 house at guilford is coming up to round 80 00:04:05,430 --> 00:04:03,579 off this week's episode well that's 81 00:04:07,020 --> 00:04:05,440 enough from me I'm going to run to the 82 00:04:10,860 --> 00:04:07,030 fridge i'm going to see if there's a 83 00:04:13,860 --> 00:04:10,870 nice sir leftover spaghetti from last 84 00:04:28,399 --> 00:04:13,870 night and well i'm doing that i'll let 85 00:04:36,089 --> 00:04:31,769 now it's time for dr. Rachel reports 86 00:04:40,749 --> 00:04:38,799 hello lapels and welcome to dr. Reggie 87 00:04:43,209 --> 00:04:40,759 reports and this week we have a 88 00:04:46,179 --> 00:04:43,219 fantastic interview with Sonia Pemberton 89 00:04:48,549 --> 00:04:46,189 who has just finished the wonderful 90 00:04:50,679 --> 00:04:48,559 vaccination documentary jabbed which is 91 00:04:53,169 --> 00:04:50,689 airing this sunday on SBS at 92 00:04:54,850 --> 00:04:53,179 eight-thirty phone is on the line now 93 00:04:58,299 --> 00:04:54,860 from melbourne iphone you're welcome to 94 00:05:00,999 --> 00:04:58,309 the skeptic own hello dr. 18 lovely to 95 00:05:03,189 --> 00:05:01,009 be here you are lovely to talk to you 96 00:05:05,350 --> 00:05:03,199 now I suppose folk to you about this 97 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:05,360 project about two years ago I think at a 98 00:05:10,629 --> 00:05:07,610 science communication in conference give 99 00:05:12,609 --> 00:05:10,639 us some idea of how much research and 100 00:05:16,329 --> 00:05:12,619 how much planning went into such a huge 101 00:05:18,269 --> 00:05:16,339 project such as jabbed well you're right 102 00:05:22,449 --> 00:05:18,279 i've started two and a half years ago 103 00:05:27,790 --> 00:05:22,459 and for one entire year I pretty much 104 00:05:30,429 --> 00:05:27,800 full time I spoke to the experts led the 105 00:05:34,469 --> 00:05:30,439 papers with the books spokes the 106 00:05:36,969 --> 00:05:34,479 families drowned in an absolute ocean of 107 00:05:38,709 --> 00:05:36,979 information and anybody who's looking to 108 00:05:43,809 --> 00:05:38,719 the vaccination issue would be very 109 00:05:46,179 --> 00:05:43,819 familiar with I spent the best part of 110 00:05:49,149 --> 00:05:46,189 that year just talking to people and 111 00:05:50,679 --> 00:05:49,159 trying to get my head around it to be 112 00:05:52,269 --> 00:05:50,689 honest you know my position when I 113 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:52,279 started was that I was just an 114 00:05:58,629 --> 00:05:55,610 unquestioning vaccination supporter and 115 00:06:00,819 --> 00:05:58,639 I couldn't quite understand why my 116 00:06:03,879 --> 00:06:00,829 previous film catch encounter had been 117 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:03,889 hit with some anti a vaccination and 118 00:06:10,239 --> 00:06:06,289 comments I didn't quite understand it 119 00:06:12,999 --> 00:06:10,249 and so it sparked this real quest to try 120 00:06:15,219 --> 00:06:13,009 and understand what was going on but 121 00:06:17,409 --> 00:06:15,229 part the way through I kind of drowns 122 00:06:21,189 --> 00:06:17,419 and really thought I can't do this it's 123 00:06:23,290 --> 00:06:21,199 just too complicated but luckily I had 124 00:06:26,379 --> 00:06:23,300 SBS behind me pushing saying we want to 125 00:06:28,359 --> 00:06:26,389 do this and I realized that I talked for 126 00:06:30,730 --> 00:06:28,369 enough families that I kind of owed it 127 00:06:34,420 --> 00:06:30,740 to them to try and get a more nuanced 128 00:06:36,339 --> 00:06:34,430 conversation happening no one year was 129 00:06:38,799 --> 00:06:36,349 sort of research reading talking and 130 00:06:42,819 --> 00:06:38,809 then I'm leaving finance and then a year 131 00:06:45,249 --> 00:06:42,829 making the film so with respect to the 132 00:06:47,350 --> 00:06:45,259 film it must have been huge in terms of 133 00:06:49,420 --> 00:06:47,360 logistics because you actually track 134 00:06:51,490 --> 00:06:49,430 sick people but also you 135 00:06:53,890 --> 00:06:51,500 outbreak from epidemics across the world 136 00:06:56,350 --> 00:06:53,900 so how do you logistically go about 137 00:06:58,180 --> 00:06:56,360 doing that well first of all I've got 138 00:06:59,740 --> 00:06:58,190 this lovely big knock on my wall and I 139 00:07:02,110 --> 00:06:59,750 have a cross plot of all the stories 140 00:07:04,510 --> 00:07:02,120 that we were wanting to follow we wanted 141 00:07:07,450 --> 00:07:04,520 to follow the measles epidemic in Europe 142 00:07:09,790 --> 00:07:07,460 because we knew there were enough cases 143 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:09,800 out there to sort of qualify as a small 144 00:07:13,620 --> 00:07:11,810 epidemic but a significant outbreak 145 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:13,630 action required to make it's an outbreak 146 00:07:21,310 --> 00:07:15,890 the media / they were calling an 147 00:07:23,110 --> 00:07:21,320 epidemic so we went to the UK and 148 00:07:26,110 --> 00:07:23,120 followed measles and then we followed 149 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:26,120 that to the Ukraine because a million 150 00:07:30,550 --> 00:07:28,010 people were coming into the area for the 151 00:07:32,530 --> 00:07:30,560 football championships at a time which 152 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:32,540 is a nice kind of interesting cross 153 00:07:40,090 --> 00:07:37,850 story I also knew I wanted to follow the 154 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:40,100 whooping cough story and I had quite a 155 00:07:43,510 --> 00:07:42,170 lot of whooping cough stories differ so 156 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:43,520 much anything cough in this country 157 00:07:47,980 --> 00:07:46,490 that's finding you a story that where 158 00:07:51,610 --> 00:07:47,990 the family were prepared to go on camera 159 00:07:53,710 --> 00:07:51,620 was even in to score but then we also 160 00:07:57,100 --> 00:07:53,720 wanted to the HPV story human 161 00:07:58,990 --> 00:07:57,110 papillomavirus story and because I had 162 00:08:02,200 --> 00:07:59,000 worked with professor ian fraser before 163 00:08:05,710 --> 00:08:02,210 with the Kachin cancer documentary we 164 00:08:09,100 --> 00:08:05,720 teed up taking that part of the story to 165 00:08:10,420 --> 00:08:09,110 be tone and of course across America we 166 00:08:12,580 --> 00:08:10,430 were just watching and listening and 167 00:08:14,820 --> 00:08:12,590 finding the stories but the point I 168 00:08:19,870 --> 00:08:14,830 really want to make and I know this is a 169 00:08:22,150 --> 00:08:19,880 kind of borderline heresy I guess but 170 00:08:23,850 --> 00:08:22,160 the Buddha will make is that the stories 171 00:08:27,910 --> 00:08:23,860 you know four of them the stories of 172 00:08:30,460 --> 00:08:27,920 severe vaccine-preventable diseases and 173 00:08:34,930 --> 00:08:30,470 tore them stories of vaccine adverse 174 00:08:38,470 --> 00:08:34,940 reactions although very nuanced and very 175 00:08:40,900 --> 00:08:38,480 very layered because I wanted to make it 176 00:08:42,970 --> 00:08:40,910 really clear that these vaccines were 177 00:08:46,150 --> 00:08:42,980 associated with but not necessarily in 178 00:08:50,110 --> 00:08:46,160 one case causal and to try and do that 179 00:08:52,540 --> 00:08:50,120 emotionally rather than with graphs and 180 00:08:55,150 --> 00:08:52,550 data if you like but to do it for 181 00:08:57,700 --> 00:08:55,160 emotional stories so I was very clear 182 00:09:00,250 --> 00:08:57,710 that that was a 183 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:00,260 an interesting way to go but I really 184 00:09:05,740 --> 00:09:02,090 wanted to have a more nuanced 185 00:09:07,180 --> 00:09:05,750 exploration of the issues yeah I wanted 186 00:09:09,190 --> 00:09:07,190 to mention that because I think the way 187 00:09:11,380 --> 00:09:09,200 you treated the adverse events is it was 188 00:09:12,900 --> 00:09:11,390 incredibly sensitive and well done and 189 00:09:14,770 --> 00:09:12,910 incredibly interesting as well 190 00:09:17,530 --> 00:09:14,780 particularly because there's a lot of 191 00:09:20,020 --> 00:09:17,540 noise around adverse events so that 192 00:09:23,050 --> 00:09:20,030 people say responses of vaccinations are 193 00:09:25,750 --> 00:09:23,060 responsible how did you sort of I guess 194 00:09:27,790 --> 00:09:25,760 filter out what is really an adverse 195 00:09:29,950 --> 00:09:27,800 event and what is what people associated 196 00:09:32,170 --> 00:09:29,960 when it necessarily isn't you know what 197 00:09:34,660 --> 00:09:32,180 I mean yeah that's the million-dollar 198 00:09:36,970 --> 00:09:34,670 question look I'm not a scientist and 199 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:36,980 I'm not a medical doctor I'm simply a 200 00:09:43,540 --> 00:09:41,450 filmmaker so I've got a very quick to 201 00:09:46,330 --> 00:09:43,550 say that I don't know what the truth is 202 00:09:48,490 --> 00:09:46,340 you know and and I have to seek 203 00:09:52,690 --> 00:09:48,500 information like anyone carefully and 204 00:09:55,810 --> 00:09:52,700 assist to a lot of rubbish the vast 205 00:09:57,850 --> 00:09:55,820 majority firstly I should say that part 206 00:10:00,030 --> 00:09:57,860 of my research was deliberately going 207 00:10:02,530 --> 00:10:00,040 into those places on the internet 208 00:10:04,930 --> 00:10:02,540 deliberately joining those communities 209 00:10:07,750 --> 00:10:04,940 in various shapes and forms and trying 210 00:10:11,710 --> 00:10:07,760 to understand really truly understand 211 00:10:16,300 --> 00:10:11,720 and I came to the conclusion that I 212 00:10:18,250 --> 00:10:16,310 can't really speak to the people who 213 00:10:19,660 --> 00:10:18,260 extreme in any direction really you know 214 00:10:20,980 --> 00:10:19,670 like what who I miss didn't talking to 215 00:10:22,930 --> 00:10:20,990 the people who just got concerns and 216 00:10:24,820 --> 00:10:22,940 worries and fears and I realized that 217 00:10:26,950 --> 00:10:24,830 really their voice wasn't represented 218 00:10:30,070 --> 00:10:26,960 out there on the internet a great deal 219 00:10:33,850 --> 00:10:30,080 there's a very very loud very fierce 220 00:10:37,330 --> 00:10:33,860 strong anti-vaccination lobby group and 221 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:37,340 a very very loud pro vaccinations groups 222 00:10:43,150 --> 00:10:39,890 and and they're all equally kind of now 223 00:10:45,340 --> 00:10:43,160 the noisy not equally but there is still 224 00:10:46,690 --> 00:10:45,350 lower annuity so what wasn't happening 225 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:46,700 with the people kind of in the middle 226 00:10:51,130 --> 00:10:49,130 who wanted accidental want to do some 227 00:10:55,990 --> 00:10:51,140 vaccines and have some questions or some 228 00:10:58,480 --> 00:10:56,000 concerns so I felt that to do that I had 229 00:11:01,030 --> 00:10:58,490 to go down the rabbit hole if you like 230 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:01,040 of following these stories of adverse 231 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:03,770 reactions and trying to find some that 232 00:11:08,980 --> 00:11:06,050 had some gave us an insight into the 233 00:11:11,050 --> 00:11:08,990 bigger vaccine problem and by problem I 234 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:11,060 mean how do we resolve what's true and 235 00:11:14,560 --> 00:11:11,450 what 236 00:11:17,410 --> 00:11:14,570 not true so I followed the science in a 237 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:17,420 nutshell I followed stories where 238 00:11:23,470 --> 00:11:21,050 firstly the people gave their names that 239 00:11:25,420 --> 00:11:23,480 helps so you cheering them up and 240 00:11:27,970 --> 00:11:25,430 contact them and they let me talk to 241 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:27,980 their doctors that was important I had 242 00:11:32,410 --> 00:11:30,050 to see the medical reports I had to see 243 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:32,420 that you know this child really did have 244 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:34,010 this thing happened within this time 245 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:37,450 time I had to find out how far they were 246 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:40,010 investigated and of course they are 247 00:11:43,210 --> 00:11:41,930 investigated there's no question you 248 00:11:45,130 --> 00:11:43,220 know there's a vast amount of 249 00:11:48,070 --> 00:11:45,140 investigation going on into vaccine 250 00:11:53,140 --> 00:11:48,080 adverse events or venting reactions as i 251 00:11:54,670 --> 00:11:53,150 like to call them so i filtered through 252 00:11:59,830 --> 00:11:54,680 the ones where I just couldn't track 253 00:12:02,170 --> 00:11:59,840 back anything sexual and then looked at 254 00:12:03,700 --> 00:12:02,180 the selection i had from around the 255 00:12:06,790 --> 00:12:03,710 world which weren't that many because of 256 00:12:12,610 --> 00:12:06,800 the honest truth is these adverse 257 00:12:14,710 --> 00:12:12,620 reactions the serious ones are rare and 258 00:12:16,870 --> 00:12:14,720 they're very rare that the parents want 259 00:12:22,090 --> 00:12:16,880 to talk you know because they're private 260 00:12:23,710 --> 00:12:22,100 about things so finding a very rare 261 00:12:24,850 --> 00:12:23,720 event anyways difficult you know 262 00:12:27,010 --> 00:12:24,860 inviting a rare event where people 263 00:12:29,290 --> 00:12:27,020 prepare to be on television was kind of 264 00:12:32,550 --> 00:12:29,300 interesting and I had to win people's 265 00:12:35,250 --> 00:12:32,560 trust to do that but I was absolutely 266 00:12:39,060 --> 00:12:35,260 overwhelmed at various stages with the 267 00:12:42,340 --> 00:12:39,070 unverifiable reports I had announced 268 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:42,350 literally I'm not kidding you I probably 269 00:12:49,990 --> 00:12:46,610 would have read over a thousand and I 270 00:12:51,940 --> 00:12:50,000 kept saying please give me your contact 271 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:51,950 details please let me see you know 272 00:12:58,140 --> 00:12:54,170 please let me find out how this works 273 00:13:01,180 --> 00:12:58,150 what happened and most of the time I 274 00:13:03,550 --> 00:13:01,190 didn't get anything I could actually go 275 00:13:07,330 --> 00:13:03,560 through on so though it's frustrating 276 00:13:09,790 --> 00:13:07,340 because I was trying my best to actually 277 00:13:11,560 --> 00:13:09,800 listen because once things I discovered 278 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:11,570 in this two and a half year journey is 279 00:13:17,500 --> 00:13:15,410 you have to listen to the stories some 280 00:13:19,450 --> 00:13:17,510 of those stories have signals if you 281 00:13:22,060 --> 00:13:19,460 like they are signals of an underlying 282 00:13:24,250 --> 00:13:22,070 problem and that's why we go into the 283 00:13:25,250 --> 00:13:24,260 polio story with John Fowler mine and 284 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:25,260 his Sunday 285 00:13:31,019 --> 00:13:29,290 because it was an extremely rare event 286 00:13:33,450 --> 00:13:31,029 what happened to his son and you can see 287 00:13:35,820 --> 00:13:33,460 this in the film but his son acquired 288 00:13:38,670 --> 00:13:35,830 the disease from the live form of the 289 00:13:40,590 --> 00:13:38,680 vaccine no this is between one in a 290 00:13:41,970 --> 00:13:40,600 million or 1 and 2.4 million depending 291 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:41,980 on where you like to get your thoughts 292 00:13:48,780 --> 00:13:45,210 from but it's an extremely rare event 293 00:13:50,850 --> 00:13:48,790 but what he did was he he followed the 294 00:13:53,550 --> 00:13:50,860 signs and the pathways of how that 295 00:13:57,329 --> 00:13:53,560 happened and it was acknowledged in the 296 00:13:59,460 --> 00:13:57,339 science was understood and so he then 297 00:14:02,579 --> 00:13:59,470 worked hard to change the vaccine to a 298 00:14:05,610 --> 00:14:02,589 better vaccine now that to me is good 299 00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:05,620 activism that's apparent reporting an 300 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:09,690 adverse reaction and acting on it and 301 00:14:15,269 --> 00:14:11,770 trying to make the world a better place 302 00:14:19,019 --> 00:14:15,279 for everyone but extraordinarily he's 303 00:14:21,180 --> 00:14:19,029 not anti-vaccine I know it was gonna lie 304 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:21,190 about that so amazing they're still very 305 00:14:25,950 --> 00:14:23,050 much in support of vaccination because 306 00:14:28,380 --> 00:14:25,960 they saw what that disease that affected 307 00:14:30,150 --> 00:14:28,390 had on their side absolutely and the 308 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:30,160 young boy is also in the film look 309 00:14:35,810 --> 00:14:31,930 filled room who was on front page of the 310 00:14:38,610 --> 00:14:35,820 age in Australia today he's family I 311 00:14:40,710 --> 00:14:38,620 have an extraordinary story of a vaccine 312 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:40,720 reaction and Sonny are not auntie 313 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:44,410 vaccine it's remarkable they you know 314 00:14:51,290 --> 00:14:48,130 they realize that then surprise for 315 00:14:54,269 --> 00:14:51,300 Public Health and nobody wants to be it 316 00:14:56,550 --> 00:14:54,279 of course and for that one in a million 317 00:14:58,350 --> 00:14:56,560 a one and 2.4 loon or whatever the stats 318 00:15:01,680 --> 00:14:58,360 for the various vaccines are different 319 00:15:05,970 --> 00:15:01,690 but whatever when it happens to the 320 00:15:09,210 --> 00:15:05,980 individual its catastrophic but English 321 00:15:11,070 --> 00:15:09,220 world of individualism and championing 322 00:15:14,250 --> 00:15:11,080 the rights of each and every one of us 323 00:15:16,500 --> 00:15:14,260 individuals these people remind us that 324 00:15:19,110 --> 00:15:16,510 the values of the community and the 325 00:15:23,699 --> 00:15:19,120 rights of the community are also really 326 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:23,709 important and I find him here yeah I 327 00:15:27,630 --> 00:15:25,450 mean I think I thought that was one of 328 00:15:29,460 --> 00:15:27,640 the strongest part of the film was 329 00:15:31,890 --> 00:15:29,470 looked at was talking to those parents 330 00:15:34,020 --> 00:15:31,900 who hadn't been through an adverse 331 00:15:36,770 --> 00:15:34,030 reaction that still supported 332 00:15:38,639 --> 00:15:36,780 vaccinations are really incredibly 333 00:15:41,069 --> 00:15:38,649 powerful 334 00:15:44,069 --> 00:15:41,079 so as part of as part of jabs you're 335 00:15:46,470 --> 00:15:44,079 also have also done a survey some of the 336 00:15:49,049 --> 00:15:46,480 results were published this morning you 337 00:15:50,639 --> 00:15:49,059 spoke to 400 parents of which 338 00:15:53,100 --> 00:15:50,649 fifty-three percent said they had 339 00:15:55,590 --> 00:15:53,110 general concerns about the safety of 340 00:15:57,329 --> 00:15:55,600 vaccines in general but forty five 341 00:16:00,809 --> 00:15:57,339 percent still decided to vaccinate 342 00:16:02,069 --> 00:16:00,819 anyway eight percent just wouldn't but 343 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:02,079 what do you what were some of the 344 00:16:08,009 --> 00:16:03,850 factors that contributed to their fears 345 00:16:10,199 --> 00:16:08,019 about machines well this was a modest 346 00:16:11,939 --> 00:16:10,209 survey Emily we're a television company 347 00:16:13,829 --> 00:16:11,949 we're not a scientific institution 348 00:16:17,790 --> 00:16:13,839 that's run a great big study so i want 349 00:16:21,449 --> 00:16:17,800 to quickly say this and the total sample 350 00:16:26,519 --> 00:16:21,459 group with 1,300 people but yeah but 450 351 00:16:29,790 --> 00:16:26,529 odds were armed Terrence what we see as 352 00:16:31,679 --> 00:16:29,800 an indication here the convention things 353 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:31,689 one that the younger you are the more 354 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:33,490 likely you are to have concerns around 355 00:16:40,109 --> 00:16:35,170 the vaccine the grandparents had the 356 00:16:42,269 --> 00:16:40,119 Leafs concerns that younger people of 357 00:16:43,980 --> 00:16:42,279 course which is so self-evident no I 358 00:16:47,939 --> 00:16:43,990 likely to go to the internet for 359 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:47,949 information and interestingly the 360 00:16:52,079 --> 00:16:50,170 internet proved to be the source of 361 00:16:54,239 --> 00:16:52,089 information for about fifty percent of 362 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:54,249 people who choose not to vaccinate and 363 00:16:58,980 --> 00:16:56,610 whereas people who do support 364 00:17:01,889 --> 00:16:58,990 vaccination got the vast majority their 365 00:17:03,689 --> 00:17:01,899 information from the GP now this is kind 366 00:17:06,329 --> 00:17:03,699 of self-evident but I think what the 367 00:17:08,519 --> 00:17:06,339 message it has for us is that we must 368 00:17:10,590 --> 00:17:08,529 not underestimate the information on the 369 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:10,600 internet and it needs to be dealt with 370 00:17:15,029 --> 00:17:12,730 and it needs to be explored and the 371 00:17:18,059 --> 00:17:15,039 concerns need to be listened to and 372 00:17:20,370 --> 00:17:18,069 likewise the role of the GP and the 373 00:17:23,250 --> 00:17:20,380 health care practitioner is vitally 374 00:17:26,610 --> 00:17:23,260 important and one of the most common 375 00:17:28,889 --> 00:17:26,620 criticisms I think I heard talking to 376 00:17:32,039 --> 00:17:28,899 families who were nervous about vaccines 377 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:32,049 or selective or delay in vaccines was 378 00:17:37,350 --> 00:17:34,570 that they felt their GP didn't listen to 379 00:17:39,269 --> 00:17:37,360 them that their health care practitioner 380 00:17:42,450 --> 00:17:39,279 was arrogant and basically said take 381 00:17:44,519 --> 00:17:42,460 this is good for you and I'm not admit 382 00:17:46,380 --> 00:17:44,529 I've seen this over and over and over 383 00:17:48,470 --> 00:17:46,390 again every country we went to the 384 00:17:51,389 --> 00:17:48,480 medical fraternity basically saying 385 00:17:52,409 --> 00:17:51,399 don't do it because we say so and the 386 00:17:54,869 --> 00:17:52,419 world is changing 387 00:17:56,609 --> 00:17:54,879 you can't you can't do that anymore you 388 00:17:58,919 --> 00:17:56,619 actually have to listen to people's 389 00:18:01,590 --> 00:17:58,929 concerns and you have to answer them as 390 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:01,600 best as you can and I think that's 391 00:18:05,639 --> 00:18:03,970 reflected in our survey and at the 392 00:18:07,379 --> 00:18:05,649 moment mean the vaccination rate is so 393 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:07,389 strong in this country so we have not 394 00:18:11,849 --> 00:18:09,730 got a problem I mean since the challenge 395 00:18:13,590 --> 00:18:11,859 of making this film I mean I didn't want 396 00:18:16,109 --> 00:18:13,600 to because up until we have a mighty 397 00:18:17,970 --> 00:18:16,119 problem around vaccines you know we 398 00:18:20,999 --> 00:18:17,980 don't we've got nineteen ninety-three 399 00:18:23,099 --> 00:18:21,009 percent of Australians vaccinating round 400 00:18:26,070 --> 00:18:23,109 about two percent you're choosing not to 401 00:18:29,879 --> 00:18:26,080 an eight percent that do selective or 402 00:18:32,039 --> 00:18:29,889 delaying or anything like 10 percent but 403 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:32,049 the bit that interests me is the fifty 404 00:18:37,019 --> 00:18:34,210 three percent that said they had some 405 00:18:39,599 --> 00:18:37,029 concerns and some of those concerns a 406 00:18:41,879 --> 00:18:39,609 really mine are vast majority are pain 407 00:18:44,940 --> 00:18:41,889 at the injection site distress to the 408 00:18:48,180 --> 00:18:44,950 child worried about how many vaccines 409 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:48,190 through to the classic the big one 410 00:18:55,649 --> 00:18:52,090 autism and other things like gun 411 00:18:57,989 --> 00:18:55,659 seizures and and and fevers so the range 412 00:18:59,249 --> 00:18:57,999 of concerns were significant what I 413 00:19:02,190 --> 00:18:59,259 thought was really interesting though is 414 00:19:05,220 --> 00:19:02,200 the autism concerned didn't come up as a 415 00:19:09,419 --> 00:19:05,230 gigantic concern but it came up with the 416 00:19:12,330 --> 00:19:09,429 area of most confusion well people will 417 00:19:15,139 --> 00:19:12,340 put put do not know against the autism 418 00:19:18,180 --> 00:19:15,149 questions far more often than any other 419 00:19:21,060 --> 00:19:18,190 errand in concern and I think what that 420 00:19:24,060 --> 00:19:21,070 tells us is that there's more work to be 421 00:19:26,669 --> 00:19:24,070 done we need to keep reminding people 422 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:26,679 that the surveys so the studies have 423 00:19:31,919 --> 00:19:28,210 been done the major studies have been 424 00:19:36,479 --> 00:19:31,929 done that over and over again show that 425 00:19:39,749 --> 00:19:36,489 this link is not in any way supported by 426 00:19:42,090 --> 00:19:39,759 hard evidence and that the situation 427 00:19:44,580 --> 00:19:42,100 behind autism is going to be far more 428 00:19:48,450 --> 00:19:44,590 conflict for mostly genetic and you know 429 00:19:50,639 --> 00:19:48,460 and as one of our great characters in 430 00:19:54,090 --> 00:19:50,649 the film in depth of Ingrid surfaces you 431 00:19:56,460 --> 00:19:54,100 know there may be some involvement in 432 00:19:58,560 --> 00:19:56,470 vaccines in a small proportion of cases 433 00:20:00,869 --> 00:19:58,570 but if that's the case we haven't 434 00:20:02,700 --> 00:20:00,879 figured out what's going on yet and the 435 00:20:05,460 --> 00:20:02,710 vast majority it's obviously connected 436 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:05,470 so we've got a lot more questions that 437 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:06,250 we need to 438 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:08,890 the answering there and that means a and 439 00:20:13,950 --> 00:20:11,890 the film both kind of point to can we 440 00:20:16,980 --> 00:20:13,960 not pretend that everything's done and 441 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:16,990 dusted you know there are questions the 442 00:20:21,150 --> 00:20:19,210 overwhelming and overloading evidence 443 00:20:23,820 --> 00:20:21,160 says vaccines are better than the 444 00:20:26,250 --> 00:20:23,830 alternative which is the disease no 445 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:26,260 question but can we do better with the 446 00:20:31,650 --> 00:20:29,530 vaccines of course do we know everything 447 00:20:33,450 --> 00:20:31,660 about how our immune systems work well 448 00:20:36,300 --> 00:20:33,460 one of the very first people I spoke to 449 00:20:38,370 --> 00:20:36,310 is Professor on peer ability Nobel Prize 450 00:20:40,290 --> 00:20:38,380 want to no less and he said Sonia we're 451 00:20:42,750 --> 00:20:40,300 only beginning to really understand the 452 00:20:44,790 --> 00:20:42,760 immune system so please you know set off 453 00:20:47,670 --> 00:20:44,800 on your journey on this film yet the 454 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:47,680 knowledge that you've always got places 455 00:20:52,350 --> 00:20:49,930 to travel to an information we need to 456 00:20:54,900 --> 00:20:52,360 gather and I guess that's that's 457 00:20:58,020 --> 00:20:54,910 something I've tried to bring to this 458 00:21:02,460 --> 00:20:58,030 that I'm not offering the truth whatever 459 00:21:05,220 --> 00:21:02,470 that may be about vaccines I'm saying in 460 00:21:09,420 --> 00:21:05,230 a complex world with a complex decision 461 00:21:12,870 --> 00:21:09,430 to make you have to assess risk and the 462 00:21:15,470 --> 00:21:12,880 bottom line is where it makes perfect 463 00:21:19,620 --> 00:21:15,480 sense to be scared of the diseases and 464 00:21:22,590 --> 00:21:19,630 scared of the vaccines okay that's not 465 00:21:25,350 --> 00:21:22,600 only have a normal thing but when you 466 00:21:27,660 --> 00:21:25,360 look at the evidence the fear under 467 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:27,670 diseases is far more warranted and far 468 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:30,490 more real and far more likely to impact 469 00:21:35,220 --> 00:21:33,610 tube then the miniscule chance of 470 00:21:37,980 --> 00:21:35,230 something happening when the vaccine I 471 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:37,990 think one of the most powerful scenes 472 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:41,170 with that scene was with dr. Paul Offit 473 00:21:47,190 --> 00:21:44,770 are rolling out the iron lung and it 474 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:47,200 seems now that I guess and you mentioned 475 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:48,610 is in the film that vaccines are a 476 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:50,170 victim of their own success in that we 477 00:21:54,930 --> 00:21:52,690 don't see these diseases anymore so we 478 00:21:57,450 --> 00:21:54,940 elevate the threat from the risk of the 479 00:22:00,600 --> 00:21:57,460 adverse event as opposed to be you know 480 00:22:04,020 --> 00:22:00,610 side effect of the disease yeah do you 481 00:22:06,420 --> 00:22:04,030 think that's a problem yeah I think that 482 00:22:08,820 --> 00:22:06,430 that's a delicate dance with we've got 483 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:08,830 to try and find at the moment because if 484 00:22:14,220 --> 00:22:12,610 we are to fight into the vaccines will 485 00:22:15,630 --> 00:22:14,230 forget to be frightened at the disease 486 00:22:16,830 --> 00:22:15,640 and that's one of the reasons why the 487 00:22:19,470 --> 00:22:16,840 film 488 00:22:21,570 --> 00:22:19,480 it's been called brutal by some and I 489 00:22:24,510 --> 00:22:21,580 guess it is brutal in some ways because 490 00:22:29,580 --> 00:22:24,520 I wanted to really hit hard that these 491 00:22:32,610 --> 00:22:29,590 diseases are not to be at excuse a 492 00:22:34,950 --> 00:22:32,620 terrible pun but um but you know these 493 00:22:38,010 --> 00:22:34,960 diseases are real and frightening and 494 00:22:40,710 --> 00:22:38,020 can be devastating so we ignore the 495 00:22:42,450 --> 00:22:40,720 diseases that uphill it would become 496 00:22:44,310 --> 00:22:42,460 overly focused on the fear of the 497 00:22:47,039 --> 00:22:44,320 vaccines we're losing the point from 498 00:22:49,919 --> 00:22:47,049 missing the point well yeah the big 499 00:22:51,659 --> 00:22:49,929 thing is that we've got to keep talking 500 00:22:53,909 --> 00:22:51,669 you know one of the things that makes me 501 00:22:57,180 --> 00:22:53,919 nervous is when we shut down the people 502 00:23:00,960 --> 00:22:57,190 who have concerns when we immediately 503 00:23:02,940 --> 00:23:00,970 say oh they must be anti-vaccine and 504 00:23:06,269 --> 00:23:02,950 what I discovered in the last two and a 505 00:23:08,460 --> 00:23:06,279 half years is that I sit with groups of 506 00:23:10,950 --> 00:23:08,470 mums and dads particularly mums and I 507 00:23:12,630 --> 00:23:10,960 did this on the weekend actually and in 508 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:12,640 the group will be one more matter if 509 00:23:18,060 --> 00:23:15,730 they can who will have a question about 510 00:23:19,710 --> 00:23:18,070 their scared about this vaccine or that 511 00:23:22,049 --> 00:23:19,720 vaccine and perhaps they've delayed it 512 00:23:24,690 --> 00:23:22,059 and haven't done it yet and the rest of 513 00:23:26,519 --> 00:23:24,700 the month turn on them and and hit them 514 00:23:29,070 --> 00:23:26,529 you know with a ton of concrete 515 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:29,080 basically and that person will kind of 516 00:23:32,490 --> 00:23:30,610 shrink and disappear off into the 517 00:23:34,230 --> 00:23:32,500 background and what I need was I said 518 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:34,240 scuze me can tell me why why you've 519 00:23:38,460 --> 00:23:36,850 hesitated grandis vaccine and turned out 520 00:23:40,740 --> 00:23:38,470 she had this complicated story about 521 00:23:42,269 --> 00:23:40,750 having a premature baby and the baby had 522 00:23:44,610 --> 00:23:42,279 all sorts of complications from being 523 00:23:46,950 --> 00:23:44,620 friend and actually she had every right 524 00:23:49,620 --> 00:23:46,960 to be nervous and when the list of the 525 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:49,630 group listen to her they softened and 526 00:23:53,940 --> 00:23:52,330 brought her into the group and the woman 527 00:23:56,639 --> 00:23:53,950 was giving far more comfortable about 528 00:23:58,230 --> 00:23:56,649 talking about leg sense and I think 529 00:24:01,200 --> 00:23:58,240 there's a little message in that for all 530 00:24:03,149 --> 00:24:01,210 of us but just because someone has 531 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:03,159 questions doesn't mean that they are 532 00:24:08,549 --> 00:24:05,850 against vaccines or pose two vaccines 533 00:24:10,139 --> 00:24:08,559 I've found a very short quick way of 534 00:24:13,409 --> 00:24:10,149 finding out if someone is actually 535 00:24:15,210 --> 00:24:13,419 hesitant or opposed and when they say to 536 00:24:16,830 --> 00:24:15,220 me I'm not anti-vaccine I've just got 537 00:24:18,539 --> 00:24:16,840 questions and I go great don't tell me 538 00:24:20,460 --> 00:24:18,549 what are your questions and they tell me 539 00:24:22,919 --> 00:24:20,470 the question and then I say so which 540 00:24:24,810 --> 00:24:22,929 vaccines would you like to use which 541 00:24:27,450 --> 00:24:24,820 diseases would you like to be protected 542 00:24:28,919 --> 00:24:27,460 from using the vaccines and usually 543 00:24:30,450 --> 00:24:28,929 people will say things oh I definitely 544 00:24:32,220 --> 00:24:30,460 want the polio 545 00:24:34,350 --> 00:24:32,230 I want the tetanus and I want this one 546 00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:34,360 but I'm not so sure about that one and 547 00:24:37,740 --> 00:24:36,370 once you start that conversation then 548 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:37,750 you realize they're not against a 549 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:39,850 vaccination they've got things that they 550 00:24:46,530 --> 00:24:42,250 need answered but Mum people will 551 00:24:48,300 --> 00:24:46,540 quickly say none they don't want any of 552 00:24:50,340 --> 00:24:48,310 the vaccines and then you've got on your 553 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:50,350 hey well I'm sorry this is a 554 00:24:53,730 --> 00:24:52,450 conversation I don't think we're 555 00:24:56,100 --> 00:24:53,740 actually having a conversation I think 556 00:24:57,870 --> 00:24:56,110 you've got your position and obviously 557 00:25:00,090 --> 00:24:57,880 I've got mine and I'm not sure we're 558 00:25:01,590 --> 00:25:00,100 going to find common ground i'm going to 559 00:25:05,340 --> 00:25:01,600 try really hard to find common ground 560 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:05,350 but i'm not sure it's there so I mean 561 00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:07,450 this the idea that there's quite a few 562 00:25:12,210 --> 00:25:09,370 parents on the fence if you like or if 563 00:25:14,310 --> 00:25:12,220 you are confused do you hope that the 564 00:25:19,310 --> 00:25:14,320 conversation that gets started by jabbed 565 00:25:21,540 --> 00:25:19,320 will allow some of their fears I hope so 566 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:21,550 I've been do we done quite a lot of 567 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:24,250 audience testing at the end of the the 568 00:25:30,810 --> 00:25:28,210 film and what we find that happens is 569 00:25:34,050 --> 00:25:30,820 most people who are in support of 570 00:25:36,660 --> 00:25:34,060 vaccinations feel affirmed that they 571 00:25:38,250 --> 00:25:36,670 feel like they understand yup the risk 572 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:38,260 of the disease disease is important 573 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:41,290 carry on the people who are hesitant the 574 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:43,330 most common thing I get is I think I 575 00:25:48,830 --> 00:25:45,490 need to go and talk to my my doctor or 576 00:25:51,420 --> 00:25:48,840 my immunization nurse and that's great 577 00:25:53,940 --> 00:25:51,430 interestingly we screened it to groups 578 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:53,950 of people who have chosen not to have 579 00:25:59,700 --> 00:25:56,650 vaccines and I've had a range of 580 00:26:02,070 --> 00:25:59,710 responses 1 which was really profound 581 00:26:03,510 --> 00:26:02,080 was from one gentleman he said to me we 582 00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:03,520 made our decision not to vaccinate our 583 00:26:07,890 --> 00:26:06,130 children 20 years ago and I've realized 584 00:26:10,050 --> 00:26:07,900 that I've forgotten to tell my children 585 00:26:12,120 --> 00:26:10,060 that they're not vaccinated and they're 586 00:26:13,620 --> 00:26:12,130 about to go traveling Europe and about I 587 00:26:16,260 --> 00:26:13,630 need to tell them so they can make their 588 00:26:18,750 --> 00:26:16,270 own decisions and I thought thank you 589 00:26:22,890 --> 00:26:18,760 that's that's the beginning of a really 590 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:22,900 useful conversation he's not going to 591 00:26:30,090 --> 00:26:26,770 change his mind but he is reminded of 592 00:26:32,100 --> 00:26:30,100 the threat of the diseases and that his 593 00:26:34,140 --> 00:26:32,110 kids are now early 20s it's time for 594 00:26:37,260 --> 00:26:34,150 them to make their own decisions around 595 00:26:40,020 --> 00:26:37,270 that and personally you know that that 596 00:26:43,590 --> 00:26:40,030 that's all I can try and do is start the 597 00:26:44,220 --> 00:26:43,600 conversation yeah well I have been 598 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:44,230 fortunate 599 00:26:48,180 --> 00:26:45,850 to see a preview of jabbed and I was 600 00:26:50,850 --> 00:26:48,190 incredibly impressed and I teared up in 601 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:50,860 part of it as well Sonya so I think it's 602 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:53,770 um you've managed to get the emotive 603 00:26:58,500 --> 00:26:56,530 side over but also the fireside so it's 604 00:27:01,049 --> 00:26:58,510 accurate and it's a motive I think the 605 00:27:03,330 --> 00:27:01,059 message is very strong so everyone 606 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:03,340 should tune in on Sunday on SBS at 607 00:27:08,130 --> 00:27:05,410 eight-thirty and are you doing any 608 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:08,140 interactive stuff while it's on we don't 609 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:11,610 get over armed absolutely the hashtag is 610 00:27:18,180 --> 00:27:16,210 hashtag jabs SBS so you can tweet 611 00:27:22,049 --> 00:27:18,190 throughout and they'll be a chat 612 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:22,059 afterwards and we have jab TV the 613 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:24,010 facebook site and people be commenting 614 00:27:29,490 --> 00:27:27,010 there and on the SBS website they're 615 00:27:31,020 --> 00:27:29,500 hosting the word decide there's a 616 00:27:34,310 --> 00:27:31,030 conversation and that the chat area 617 00:27:37,260 --> 00:27:34,320 there I would love people who are 618 00:27:39,419 --> 00:27:37,270 interested in engaging to get involved 619 00:27:41,669 --> 00:27:39,429 because it'd be nice to try and break 620 00:27:44,250 --> 00:27:41,679 out of the usual kind of shouting match 621 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:44,260 I'm not sure that's possible but it'd be 622 00:27:48,330 --> 00:27:46,570 really nice just to kind of try this 623 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:48,340 thing of it to each other and see what 624 00:27:52,530 --> 00:27:50,410 happens but then we're definitely taking 625 00:27:54,360 --> 00:27:52,540 Q&A after the show with well for a 626 00:27:55,590 --> 00:27:54,370 couple of hours after the show so just 627 00:27:57,330 --> 00:27:55,600 finally Sonia where can our 628 00:27:59,450 --> 00:27:57,340 international business see jab will it 629 00:28:04,350 --> 00:27:59,460 be released across the world at any time 630 00:28:06,659 --> 00:28:04,360 yes PBS are going to release it across 631 00:28:10,020 --> 00:28:06,669 the u.s. towards the end of the year 632 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:10,030 we're reshooting some sequences to make 633 00:28:15,539 --> 00:28:12,970 them more American and more sex to the 634 00:28:17,100 --> 00:28:15,549 american issues that's happening at the 635 00:28:18,380 --> 00:28:17,110 moment we're filming actually literally 636 00:28:20,909 --> 00:28:18,390 at the moment it's happening right now 637 00:28:22,799 --> 00:28:20,919 we're filming a baby with whooping cough 638 00:28:24,330 --> 00:28:22,809 on an ECMO machine on a heart-lung 639 00:28:26,220 --> 00:28:24,340 transplant machine so to be 640 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:26,230 extraordinary for watching that footage 641 00:28:30,510 --> 00:28:28,450 comes through every night for the rest 642 00:28:33,830 --> 00:28:30,520 of the world various broadcasters are 643 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:33,840 picking it up at the moment please lobby 644 00:28:40,470 --> 00:28:37,210 the BBC channel 4 channel 5 the UK have 645 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:40,480 not yet decided who's taking it we would 646 00:28:44,190 --> 00:28:42,730 love to see it on one of those networks 647 00:28:46,950 --> 00:28:44,200 and it's being released across Europe 648 00:28:49,620 --> 00:28:46,960 through arte and we'll post it on our 649 00:28:51,780 --> 00:28:49,630 gene pool website as gene pool 650 00:28:53,100 --> 00:28:51,790 productions and we'll post where it's 651 00:28:56,580 --> 00:28:53,110 going people east around the world as it 652 00:28:58,080 --> 00:28:56,590 comes fantastic what's on your I just 653 00:28:59,669 --> 00:28:58,090 want to say congratulations 654 00:29:01,649 --> 00:28:59,679 and I'm sure a lot of our listeners will 655 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:01,659 also agree that it's fantastic 656 00:29:05,010 --> 00:29:03,130 documentary and thanks for taking the 657 00:29:06,330 --> 00:29:05,020 time to talk to us today thank you so 658 00:29:17,580 --> 00:29:06,340 much for giving me the opportunity I 659 00:29:19,919 --> 00:29:17,590 really appreciate it hi this is Tim 660 00:29:22,830 --> 00:29:19,929 barley you probably know me from what's 661 00:29:25,019 --> 00:29:22,840 the harm net a catalog of the real world 662 00:29:28,740 --> 00:29:25,029 harm caused by lack of critical thinking 663 00:29:31,950 --> 00:29:28,750 but that's not my only project i present 664 00:29:34,230 --> 00:29:31,960 at skeptic events I post a daily skeptic 665 00:29:37,049 --> 00:29:34,240 history fact on Twitter and Facebook and 666 00:29:40,139 --> 00:29:37,059 I blog about using new techniques on the 667 00:29:43,500 --> 00:29:40,149 internet to advance skepticism come over 668 00:29:46,769 --> 00:29:43,510 to skip tools com and check out my 669 00:30:05,220 --> 00:29:46,779 latest ideas but first enjoy the rest of 670 00:30:13,350 --> 00:30:09,450 alone from the mind-body-spirit festival 671 00:30:15,940 --> 00:30:13,360 2013 in maine sydney a very noisy 672 00:30:17,620 --> 00:30:15,950 mind-body-spirit festival rows and rows 673 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:17,630 here at the convention center little 674 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:20,090 stalls selling lots of things let me see 675 00:30:29,169 --> 00:30:23,330 i'm passing anti-aging i'm passing life 676 00:30:33,830 --> 00:30:29,179 blood analysis clairvoyant medium stand 677 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:33,840 yo girl herbs and spices dr. pens pain 678 00:30:42,350 --> 00:30:38,090 relief copies pure beeswax candles your 679 00:30:44,539 --> 00:30:42,360 personal horoscope here and now with 680 00:30:48,700 --> 00:30:44,549 equinox astrology human awareness 681 00:30:53,210 --> 00:30:48,710 Institute Aquarian pearls ketonic 682 00:30:57,230 --> 00:30:53,220 iridology Singh bold it goes on and on 683 00:30:59,420 --> 00:30:57,240 at the end of this Avenue I'm walking 684 00:31:01,700 --> 00:30:59,430 down now 685 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:01,710 as you can hear it seems do something 686 00:31:08,930 --> 00:31:06,450 happening on stage very loud well so we 687 00:31:11,900 --> 00:31:08,940 got here ginger drink so they can't be 688 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:11,910 too bad animal talk animal whisperer I 689 00:31:16,370 --> 00:31:15,090 like to whisper to my animals let's see 690 00:31:32,269 --> 00:31:16,380 what's going out the end of this little 691 00:31:41,060 --> 00:31:36,209 what is it about the New Age drumming is 692 00:31:45,419 --> 00:31:41,070 it because thumbs are easy to play about 693 00:31:49,169 --> 00:31:45,429 25 men and women on stage dressed in 694 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:49,179 black shirts with tartan all just 695 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:00,090 Leslie and Harry psychic realms looks 696 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:03,370 very nice Indian spirit guides Indians 697 00:32:18,940 --> 00:32:15,550 now the drumming has died down I was 698 00:32:24,910 --> 00:32:18,950 just at the stand of bio flow unique 699 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:24,920 natural pain relief wristbands they look 700 00:32:29,890 --> 00:32:27,290 exactly like power balance and the guy 701 00:32:31,990 --> 00:32:29,900 told me to piss off when I started 702 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:32,000 asking questions I think that's a bit of 703 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:34,250 a red flag if you ask questions and 704 00:32:37,870 --> 00:32:35,810 someone says here to piss off get away 705 00:32:38,980 --> 00:32:37,880 yeah I think that's pretty big red flag 706 00:32:43,690 --> 00:32:38,990 I think I'm going to look more into 707 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:43,700 these bio flow wristbands I can't 708 00:32:49,750 --> 00:32:46,610 believe that sticks still going on well 709 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:49,760 as you know I try to come to this first 710 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:51,290 of all every six months and it's every 711 00:32:56,700 --> 00:32:53,530 six months here in Sydney 712 00:32:59,130 --> 00:32:56,710 I'm delighted to say it's more and more 713 00:33:02,670 --> 00:32:59,140 just general woo woo you know psychic 714 00:33:05,580 --> 00:33:02,680 readings and pleasant smells and I don't 715 00:33:08,750 --> 00:33:05,590 know this that the other and far less of 716 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:08,760 the outright utter quackery although 717 00:33:16,410 --> 00:33:12,210 there are people doing things like 718 00:33:18,270 --> 00:33:16,420 allergy testing using machines miles of 719 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:18,280 substances based on how many epic 720 00:33:23,700 --> 00:33:20,770 principles or something like that 721 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:23,710 but here's an interesting one all go and 722 00:33:29,390 --> 00:33:25,930 effects Australia and they're selling 723 00:33:31,830 --> 00:33:29,400 devices to protect your water bottles 724 00:33:39,710 --> 00:33:31,840 mobile phones and anything else from 725 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:41,659 earlier and asked passing this they were 726 00:33:47,590 --> 00:33:44,490 using dowsing rods to show the how these 727 00:33:51,190 --> 00:33:47,600 pendants and things protector on that 728 00:33:53,770 --> 00:33:51,200 naudia radiation-free geo perfect stress 729 00:33:56,380 --> 00:33:53,780 readings are they sell things to plug 730 00:33:59,950 --> 00:33:56,390 into your PowerPoint which cleanse your 731 00:34:01,810 --> 00:33:59,960 house from geo pathak stress this is a 732 00:34:06,109 --> 00:34:01,820 job for consumer affairs I'll grab their 733 00:34:09,919 --> 00:34:08,210 now somebody asked me before why do I 734 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:09,929 keep coming back to these things why do 735 00:34:13,839 --> 00:34:11,490 I keep going back to mind body spirit 736 00:34:16,009 --> 00:34:13,849 vessel on my buddy wallet as we call it 737 00:34:17,359 --> 00:34:16,019 well it's because I don't want to be an 738 00:34:21,019 --> 00:34:17,369 armchair skeptic I want to get out there 739 00:34:22,369 --> 00:34:21,029 see what's going on see things like the 740 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:22,379 fact that there's not so much of the 741 00:34:27,109 --> 00:34:23,970 dangerous quickly in fact I haven't seen 742 00:34:28,940 --> 00:34:27,119 anyone promising making cure cancer and 743 00:34:30,609 --> 00:34:28,950 years ago when I came here there were 744 00:34:34,370 --> 00:34:30,619 people promising they could cure cancer 745 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:34,380 so that looks like it's gone 746 00:34:38,390 --> 00:34:36,450 but I still recommend it I still 747 00:34:39,950 --> 00:34:38,400 recommended any good skeptic if you have 748 00:34:42,830 --> 00:34:39,960 the chance should visit a new age fair 749 00:35:02,900 --> 00:34:42,840 walk around and ask questions it's it's 750 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:02,910 well worth it this is ben Radford I'm 751 00:35:06,530 --> 00:35:04,650 deputy editor of skeptical Inquirer 752 00:35:09,110 --> 00:35:06,540 science magazine author of six books 753 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:09,120 including try and chupacabra and you can 754 00:35:19,100 --> 00:35:10,530 find out more about me at Benjamin 755 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:19,110 Radford com welcome to a week in science 756 00:35:24,710 --> 00:35:22,410 from our iOS this week new human stem 757 00:35:32,980 --> 00:35:24,720 cells the oldest monkey and a and 758 00:35:39,260 --> 00:35:36,079 for the first time ever scientists have 759 00:35:41,750 --> 00:35:39,270 made human embryonic stem cells they 760 00:35:44,030 --> 00:35:41,760 first removed the nucleus from a human 761 00:35:46,460 --> 00:35:44,040 egg then replaced it with the nucleus 762 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:46,470 from a donor skin cell these immature 763 00:35:51,349 --> 00:35:48,810 cells resemble those derived from 764 00:35:53,540 --> 00:35:51,359 embryos fertilized with sperm and can 765 00:35:56,630 --> 00:35:53,550 develop into different specialized cells 766 00:35:58,550 --> 00:35:56,640 they are almost genetically identical to 767 00:36:00,800 --> 00:35:58,560 the donors own cells and can 768 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:00,810 theoretically be used to make new organs 769 00:36:07,310 --> 00:36:02,690 and tissues to replace diseased 770 00:36:09,109 --> 00:36:07,320 dysfunctional or damaged ones this week 771 00:36:11,540 --> 00:36:09,119 scientists announced the discovery of 772 00:36:15,050 --> 00:36:11,550 the world's oldest fossil ape and the 773 00:36:17,900 --> 00:36:15,060 world's oldest old world monkey the ape 774 00:36:21,260 --> 00:36:17,910 was identified by a partial jawbone and 775 00:36:23,270 --> 00:36:21,270 the monkey by just a single tooth both 776 00:36:25,910 --> 00:36:23,280 were recovered from a layer of Earth in 777 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:25,920 the African Rift Valley in Tanzania that 778 00:36:31,490 --> 00:36:28,650 had already been precisely dated to 25 779 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:31,500 point two million years old the ape has 780 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:34,050 been named require Pittacus require 781 00:36:38,089 --> 00:36:35,970 after the area where the specimen was 782 00:36:40,910 --> 00:36:38,099 found and pithy curse from the greek 783 00:36:44,420 --> 00:36:40,920 word for ape you're listening to a week 784 00:36:47,150 --> 00:36:44,430 in science from our iOS and now for 785 00:36:48,859 --> 00:36:47,160 science headlines in 30 seconds a link 786 00:36:51,380 --> 00:36:48,869 has been found between traffic air 787 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:51,390 pollution and an increased risk of 788 00:36:55,970 --> 00:36:53,970 insulin resistance in children another 789 00:36:58,010 --> 00:36:55,980 link has been found between exposure to 790 00:37:00,950 --> 00:36:58,020 Agent Orange and lethal forms of 791 00:37:03,050 --> 00:37:00,960 prostate cancer in US veterans climate 792 00:37:04,970 --> 00:37:03,060 change will have the living space for 793 00:37:07,550 --> 00:37:04,980 more than fifty percent of all plants 794 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:07,560 and thirty percent of all animals by 795 00:37:11,990 --> 00:37:10,410 2018 and researching how alligators 796 00:37:14,750 --> 00:37:12,000 replace their teeth throughout their 797 00:37:18,289 --> 00:37:14,760 lives may one day save you a trip to the 798 00:37:22,539 --> 00:37:20,599 and finally this week printing 799 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:22,549 electronic circuits onto paper 800 00:37:27,859 --> 00:37:25,170 researchers have developed an ink that 801 00:37:30,529 --> 00:37:27,869 conducts electricity new printing 802 00:37:32,809 --> 00:37:30,539 devices and specially coated paper that 803 00:37:34,579 --> 00:37:32,819 allows electronic circuits to be printed 804 00:37:36,289 --> 00:37:34,589 at room temperature this could 805 00:37:38,419 --> 00:37:36,299 revolutionize the development and 806 00:37:41,150 --> 00:37:38,429 manufacture of many electronic devices 807 00:37:43,370 --> 00:37:41,160 you can download a circuit diagram for 808 00:37:45,199 --> 00:37:43,380 any electrical device and then send it 809 00:37:48,559 --> 00:37:45,209 to a special printer connected to your 810 00:37:50,929 --> 00:37:48,569 home computer as an added bonus the inks 811 00:37:54,769 --> 00:37:50,939 can be collected and reused giving the 812 00:37:57,049 --> 00:37:54,779 technology some green credentials this 813 00:37:59,689 --> 00:37:57,059 Saturday is international fascination of 814 00:38:02,630 --> 00:37:59,699 plants day it's an opportunity for you 815 00:38:04,939 --> 00:38:02,640 to rediscover your inner botanist there 816 00:38:07,189 --> 00:38:04,949 are activities all over Australia and 817 00:38:08,779 --> 00:38:07,199 check out the Arias website for tour 818 00:38:11,209 --> 00:38:08,789 information of the adelaide botanic 819 00:38:13,459 --> 00:38:11,219 garden that's been the highlights of 820 00:38:16,039 --> 00:38:13,469 another big week in science for more 821 00:38:21,589 --> 00:38:16,049 information and other science news check 822 00:38:24,259 --> 00:38:21,599 out the Arias website are I aus org a 823 00:38:27,140 --> 00:38:24,269 you where you can also sign up for 824 00:38:28,789 --> 00:38:27,150 notifications of future episodes you can 825 00:38:32,449 --> 00:38:28,799 follow a week in science on Twitter 826 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:32,459 using the hashtag week inside I'm Tony 827 00:38:45,820 --> 00:38:34,890 Amaya and on behalf of the Arias team 828 00:38:52,340 --> 00:38:48,470 nice interracial teen darshan skeptic 829 00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:52,350 zone bascially su Amiga won't escape toy 830 00:39:00,200 --> 00:38:56,970 talk on da CA n sceptile chica crucial a 831 00:39:03,140 --> 00:39:00,210 podcast GMO a momentito with her own see 832 00:39:05,990 --> 00:39:03,150 no party pocket and Helios intertwined 833 00:39:10,190 --> 00:39:06,000 solution in more'n for Josh attention 834 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:10,200 chatty Lana cncl link li dao itunes the 835 00:39:17,030 --> 00:39:13,890 true 11 jan SATA sceptile photoshop on 836 00:39:19,430 --> 00:39:17,040 well one of the ones skeptically does 837 00:39:19,430 --> 00:39:19,440 the end 838 00:39:25,099 --> 00:39:22,730 the script I'd science podcast by brian 839 00:39:27,589 --> 00:39:25,109 dunning is now available for Chinese 840 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:27,599 audience please tell your Chinese 841 00:39:34,010 --> 00:39:31,170 friends to visit skip toy con dos en a 842 00:39:47,670 --> 00:39:34,020 fine skipped hoid on the Chinese itunes 843 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:52,109 here's my not spooky action at a 844 00:40:01,230 --> 00:39:58,620 no have you had to have an operation 845 00:40:04,260 --> 00:40:01,240 we've had to have a general anesthetic I 846 00:40:05,970 --> 00:40:04,270 I have it certainly many people have its 847 00:40:08,190 --> 00:40:05,980 experience that most of us will undergo 848 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:08,200 usually sometime during our lives and 849 00:40:11,970 --> 00:40:10,330 despite certainly being a miracle of 850 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:11,980 modern medicine i believe it was once 851 00:40:16,860 --> 00:40:15,130 described as God's gift to mankind by a 852 00:40:18,780 --> 00:40:16,870 great philosopher it can be an 853 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:18,790 experience scary experience and one that 854 00:40:23,010 --> 00:40:20,890 we don't fully understand because it 855 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:23,020 certainly requires a lot of training how 856 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:25,690 deep how deep and sleep do we have to be 857 00:40:29,610 --> 00:40:28,330 a model a long-term effects of 858 00:40:31,890 --> 00:40:29,620 anesthetic we have on the phone 859 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:31,900 professor timothy short Auckland City 860 00:40:36,390 --> 00:40:33,610 Hospital New Zealand hello Timothy how 861 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:36,400 are you hello first of all I'd like to 862 00:40:41,010 --> 00:40:39,130 our and this assists the biggest party 863 00:40:42,450 --> 00:40:41,020 is in the medical world every nice 864 00:40:46,740 --> 00:40:42,460 assist I've met has been someone who 865 00:40:50,070 --> 00:40:46,750 knows how to party definitely not it is 866 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:50,080 a fiver all day okay because it's a 867 00:40:53,250 --> 00:40:51,850 rumor that we might have got from maybe 868 00:40:56,430 --> 00:40:53,260 watching mash or something like that 869 00:40:59,280 --> 00:40:56,440 snooze it's just not right I just wish 870 00:41:00,810 --> 00:40:59,290 my career was that good well you've 871 00:41:02,700 --> 00:41:00,820 certainly you've certainly had a 872 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:02,710 distinguished career I mean to be doing 873 00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:04,210 what you're doing at the moment in fact 874 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:06,250 how long do you have to train and study 875 00:41:11,250 --> 00:41:08,170 to be in an SS a lot of people might not 876 00:41:13,140 --> 00:41:11,260 know that well you do your normal six 877 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:13,150 years at Medical School and usually 878 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:14,650 after a couple of years of clinical 879 00:41:19,710 --> 00:41:17,530 experience you specialize and if you 880 00:41:21,570 --> 00:41:19,720 choose anesthesia the full training is 881 00:41:24,720 --> 00:41:21,580 another five years before you're allowed 882 00:41:26,910 --> 00:41:24,730 to be an independent specialist well and 883 00:41:28,820 --> 00:41:26,920 what drew you to that I always like to 884 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:28,830 know why certain doctors become 885 00:41:34,170 --> 00:41:31,330 dermatologists or heart surgeons while 886 00:41:36,510 --> 00:41:34,180 because that it can be a tricky one you 887 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:36,520 I mean you can't I mean the surgeons 888 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:37,930 doing operation but you've certainly 889 00:41:43,110 --> 00:41:39,490 your response you can kill the patient 890 00:41:45,300 --> 00:41:43,120 on your own lawn trilling oh no I mean 891 00:41:47,130 --> 00:41:45,310 they'd think I can safely guide them 892 00:41:48,990 --> 00:41:47,140 through the trauma of the operation I'll 893 00:41:50,250 --> 00:41:49,000 see we'll see that's me half glass empty 894 00:41:52,260 --> 00:41:50,260 kind of thing that's why i would never 895 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:52,270 been in easiest just I'd be just so 896 00:41:56,580 --> 00:41:54,970 scared that I had this person's life in 897 00:41:57,570 --> 00:41:56,590 my hands all the time and that's why I 898 00:42:00,750 --> 00:41:57,580 wondered why you would choose that 899 00:42:03,690 --> 00:42:00,760 particular branch of medicine I think 900 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:03,700 it's a very satisfying career and you 901 00:42:07,140 --> 00:42:05,170 know it's quite a challenge and a lot of 902 00:42:08,910 --> 00:42:07,150 us like it it's certainly a lot more 903 00:42:12,420 --> 00:42:08,920 complicated and a lot of people believe 904 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:12,430 sort of gone to sleep that yeah and that 905 00:42:16,470 --> 00:42:14,050 that's why we've got to hear because a 906 00:42:18,570 --> 00:42:16,480 lot of people think oh I'm out it's like 907 00:42:19,980 --> 00:42:18,580 it's like a 0 or 1 i'm either here or 908 00:42:22,890 --> 00:42:19,990 there not that's certainly not the case 909 00:42:24,720 --> 00:42:22,900 this is Professor know basically once 910 00:42:27,210 --> 00:42:24,730 you're asleep we can sort of run you at 911 00:42:29,250 --> 00:42:27,220 any level of depth you know in terms of 912 00:42:31,380 --> 00:42:29,260 how deeply we shut down the brain and 913 00:42:35,130 --> 00:42:31,390 shut down the body's reflexes and 914 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:35,140 response to pain and trauma you know the 915 00:42:40,230 --> 00:42:38,530 surgery that's occurring and how do you 916 00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:40,240 decide what level that is is a 917 00:42:45,690 --> 00:42:43,330 consultation hospital visit operation 918 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:45,700 specific or as a doctor going to tell 919 00:42:48,390 --> 00:42:46,930 you know this patient needs to be more 920 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:48,400 than another patient how does that work 921 00:42:53,190 --> 00:42:51,370 out there's a lot of factors of it 922 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:53,200 depends very much on the operation you 923 00:42:56,850 --> 00:42:54,490 need a lot more anesthetic to have a 924 00:43:02,640 --> 00:42:56,860 cardiac bypass operation and the heaven 925 00:43:05,070 --> 00:43:02,650 ingrown toenail removed but equally will 926 00:43:07,470 --> 00:43:05,080 be fair to say until the last 10 or 20 927 00:43:09,720 --> 00:43:07,480 years we were not able to measure depth 928 00:43:12,420 --> 00:43:09,730 accurately and we just gave doses that 929 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:12,430 we're insured everybody was you know 930 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:14,290 comfortably asleep and would not be 931 00:43:20,990 --> 00:43:18,370 aware during the experience and when and 932 00:43:23,820 --> 00:43:21,000 what is the consequence of this changing 933 00:43:25,530 --> 00:43:23,830 well now that we have monitors that can 934 00:43:28,770 --> 00:43:25,540 look particularly at the brain waves and 935 00:43:31,140 --> 00:43:28,780 theatre electron kilogram a bit of a 936 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:31,150 debate opened up as just how deeply and 937 00:43:37,380 --> 00:43:34,210 nifa tized we really need to be some 938 00:43:39,720 --> 00:43:37,390 evidence that a few sort of standard of 939 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:39,730 care is reasonably deep to be safe but 940 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:41,170 there's some evidence that that may 941 00:43:45,900 --> 00:43:43,090 prolong a recovery after an operation 942 00:43:49,470 --> 00:43:45,910 and increase particularly in the elderly 943 00:43:52,020 --> 00:43:49,480 to the burden of you know confusion and 944 00:43:56,130 --> 00:43:52,030 sort of not coping that well after major 945 00:43:57,810 --> 00:43:56,140 surgery and deep I've had a reason to 946 00:44:00,210 --> 00:43:57,820 have the same operation twice and the 947 00:44:02,790 --> 00:44:00,220 first time a much deeper anesthetic was 948 00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:02,800 used and the recovery time was just 949 00:44:07,860 --> 00:44:05,170 incredible between the two exact same 950 00:44:10,350 --> 00:44:07,870 operations yeah and that that is just 951 00:44:11,970 --> 00:44:10,360 amazing that the the tech does make that 952 00:44:13,380 --> 00:44:11,980 much difference because again people 953 00:44:16,650 --> 00:44:13,390 often think you're either knocked out or 954 00:44:19,170 --> 00:44:16,660 you're not that's right and you know we 955 00:44:22,410 --> 00:44:19,180 have a lot of drugs available to us that 956 00:44:24,660 --> 00:44:22,420 will run people at different levels and 957 00:44:26,339 --> 00:44:24,670 you know it's part of our commitment to 958 00:44:28,500 --> 00:44:26,349 a very high standard of perioperative 959 00:44:30,599 --> 00:44:28,510 care we're always searching for ways to 960 00:44:33,059 --> 00:44:30,609 make the experience better for the 961 00:44:34,890 --> 00:44:33,069 patient and professor timothy short at 962 00:44:37,530 --> 00:44:34,900 the conference with all in ethicists 963 00:44:39,150 --> 00:44:37,540 there what is the one thing that people 964 00:44:40,799 --> 00:44:39,160 would what's a development that people 965 00:44:41,789 --> 00:44:40,809 would like or we're looking forward to 966 00:44:43,620 --> 00:44:41,799 is there something just around the 967 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:43,630 corner that that is a bit of a holy 968 00:44:49,859 --> 00:44:45,490 grail for an exorcism that's not quite 969 00:44:52,799 --> 00:44:49,869 there yet no don't think so this is some 970 00:44:54,690 --> 00:44:52,809 very much backroom research it's a major 971 00:44:57,240 --> 00:44:54,700 project funded by the National Health 972 00:44:59,069 --> 00:44:57,250 and Medical Research Council in 973 00:45:01,230 --> 00:44:59,079 Australia as well as the Health Research 974 00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:01,240 Council in New Zealand and it's really 975 00:45:08,549 --> 00:45:05,530 fine-tuning the anaesthetic you know we 976 00:45:11,010 --> 00:45:08,559 do millions of operations basically a 977 00:45:12,510 --> 00:45:11,020 year in Australasia and if we can just 978 00:45:14,970 --> 00:45:12,520 make them a little bit safer 979 00:45:18,020 --> 00:45:14,980 particularly in the elderly and the sick 980 00:45:20,819 --> 00:45:18,030 patients then we're very keen to do that 981 00:45:23,490 --> 00:45:20,829 if a patient is as a difficult heart 982 00:45:25,289 --> 00:45:23,500 condition how much more difficult does 983 00:45:27,450 --> 00:45:25,299 that make the anesthesia side of the 984 00:45:30,599 --> 00:45:27,460 operation it makes it a lot more 985 00:45:32,460 --> 00:45:30,609 complicated especially you know to 986 00:45:34,490 --> 00:45:32,470 ensure a good outcome that doesn't 987 00:45:37,319 --> 00:45:34,500 stress the half-orc all the heart attack 988 00:45:39,890 --> 00:45:37,329 yeah and is it just a matter of a light 989 00:45:42,930 --> 00:45:39,900 asleep or is there a different kind of 990 00:45:45,210 --> 00:45:42,940 anesthesia needed no there would be a 991 00:45:47,220 --> 00:45:45,220 lot more monitoring of all the 992 00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:47,230 cardiovascular variables that we can to 993 00:45:52,230 --> 00:45:48,970 see that they're all kept absolutely as 994 00:45:53,789 --> 00:45:52,240 perfect as we can and also the drag mix 995 00:45:56,430 --> 00:45:53,799 would be different because i would use 996 00:45:58,950 --> 00:45:56,440 more medicines to protect the heart the 997 00:46:00,750 --> 00:45:58,960 healthy person would need is there 998 00:46:02,849 --> 00:46:00,760 something in an ideal world that you 999 00:46:07,829 --> 00:46:02,859 would like to see invented or bring into 1000 00:46:09,270 --> 00:46:07,839 that your field bigger oh yeah because i 1001 00:46:10,799 --> 00:46:09,280 just think i was getting it earlier that 1002 00:46:12,059 --> 00:46:10,809 you know you things are pretty good at 1003 00:46:14,549 --> 00:46:12,069 the moment but if there's something you 1004 00:46:16,289 --> 00:46:14,559 could magically bring in that is that 1005 00:46:18,630 --> 00:46:16,299 would just make it perfect and make it 1006 00:46:20,430 --> 00:46:18,640 even the most safest process possible is 1007 00:46:23,370 --> 00:46:20,440 there something that you think could be 1008 00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:23,380 invented well I think increasingly it's 1009 00:46:27,569 --> 00:46:25,210 not a matter of surviving the 1010 00:46:29,579 --> 00:46:27,579 anaesthetic or the surgery it's a matter 1011 00:46:31,500 --> 00:46:29,589 of getting a really good outcome whereby 1012 00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:31,510 we haven't contributed to the burden of 1013 00:46:37,830 --> 00:46:36,010 infection or you know let's say confuse 1014 00:46:39,900 --> 00:46:37,840 vision and so on after the operations 1015 00:46:42,180 --> 00:46:39,910 and I think we're getting closer to 1016 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:42,190 getting anesthesia perfect than we were 1017 00:46:46,770 --> 00:46:45,010 even 20 years ago dr. Timothy short 1018 00:46:48,060 --> 00:46:46,780 Alton City Hospital in New Zealand thank 1019 00:46:49,650 --> 00:46:48,070 you for talking to thank you very much 1020 00:46:51,390 --> 00:46:49,660 thank you much for your time as 1021 00:46:53,010 --> 00:46:51,400 fascinating wasn't it I mean I always 1022 00:46:54,750 --> 00:46:53,020 you know they're the people that are 1023 00:46:56,250 --> 00:46:54,760 keeping you alive and awake while the 1024 00:47:10,260 --> 00:46:56,260 operations are going on as you would 1025 00:47:15,090 --> 00:47:12,960 hi I'm Finn and I'm Rebecca and where 1026 00:47:16,860 --> 00:47:15,100 the skipper cons skipper Collins is an 1027 00:47:18,540 --> 00:47:16,870 Irish blood cast by the Dublin skeptics 1028 00:47:20,100 --> 00:47:18,550 society it takes a conversational 1029 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:20,110 Reverend look at science news and 1030 00:47:24,870 --> 00:47:21,370 skeptical topics from an Irish 1031 00:47:28,990 --> 00:47:24,880 perspective you can find us at WWDC 1032 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:36,720 whetstone fathers 1033 00:47:43,470 --> 00:47:40,470 in September 2006 17 year old Mike 1034 00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:43,480 Tennessee was tragically killed in a car 1035 00:47:48,930 --> 00:47:46,210 accident his family are from the Sydney 1036 00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:48,940 suburb of Guildford and not long after 1037 00:47:56,790 --> 00:47:53,290 Mike's tragic death oil seemed to be 1038 00:48:00,540 --> 00:47:56,800 starting to appear on the walls of the 1039 00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:00,550 tennis family house this gained some 1040 00:48:06,180 --> 00:48:02,890 notoriety more and more people came to 1041 00:48:08,610 --> 00:48:06,190 see this mysterious oil the oil spread 1042 00:48:11,730 --> 00:48:08,620 to various parts of the house including 1043 00:48:14,490 --> 00:48:11,740 the ceiling and over the intervening 1044 00:48:18,090 --> 00:48:14,500 years the house has been turned into a 1045 00:48:21,590 --> 00:48:18,100 shrine with many religious paintings on 1046 00:48:24,450 --> 00:48:21,600 the wall and the oil spread far and wide 1047 00:48:27,350 --> 00:48:24,460 the ceiling is covered with drawings of 1048 00:48:30,900 --> 00:48:27,360 crosses and other religious artifacts 1049 00:48:33,270 --> 00:48:30,910 letters of the alphabet dates and other 1050 00:48:35,130 --> 00:48:33,280 squiggles needless to say this story has 1051 00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:35,140 caught the attention of the media over 1052 00:48:38,940 --> 00:48:37,090 the years including the tabloid 1053 00:48:41,670 --> 00:48:38,950 television shows of today tonight and 1054 00:48:44,100 --> 00:48:41,680 the current affair members of Australian 1055 00:48:46,740 --> 00:48:44,110 skeptics over those years have appeared 1056 00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:46,750 on these shows to give our opinion of 1057 00:48:52,890 --> 00:48:49,810 the oil and the general goings on so I 1058 00:48:55,860 --> 00:48:52,900 like to play now some selected clips 1059 00:48:58,530 --> 00:48:55,870 from those reports over the years to 1060 00:49:01,020 --> 00:48:58,540 give you a good idea of course if you do 1061 00:49:03,570 --> 00:49:01,030 a search for Guilford House of miracles 1062 00:49:06,450 --> 00:49:03,580 on youtube or in Google you'll certainly 1063 00:49:09,690 --> 00:49:06,460 see more reports and video reports so 1064 00:49:12,660 --> 00:49:09,700 you can see for yourself dr the oil on 1065 00:49:20,870 --> 00:49:12,670 the walls but here now are some selected 1066 00:49:26,830 --> 00:49:23,930 something strange is going on at number 1067 00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:26,840 six Bowden street 1068 00:49:33,220 --> 00:49:30,770 the miracles never seem to stop that if 1069 00:49:36,130 --> 00:49:33,230 you believe the owners leaner and George 1070 00:49:40,720 --> 00:49:36,140 too nice meeting is happened here 1071 00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:40,730 they're all your dishes many people saw 1072 00:49:47,260 --> 00:49:43,970 Virgin Mary appeared here and many 1073 00:49:50,590 --> 00:49:47,270 things many medical happen all the time 1074 00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:50,600 yeah we first met the two news family 1075 00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:53,690 seven years ago they're 17 year old son 1076 00:49:59,050 --> 00:49:56,330 was killed in a car accident just around 1077 00:50:02,880 --> 00:49:59,060 the corner from their home five months 1078 00:50:15,700 --> 00:50:02,890 after his death his parents reported oil 1079 00:50:19,090 --> 00:50:15,710 weeping from Mike's bedroom wall word 1080 00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:19,100 spread almost as quickly as the oil soon 1081 00:50:25,420 --> 00:50:22,130 believers were flocking to number six to 1082 00:50:36,690 --> 00:50:25,430 see for themselves the oil rush had 1083 00:50:43,420 --> 00:50:40,660 in 2007 we had the oil scientifically 1084 00:50:46,930 --> 00:50:43,430 tested it was found to be a mix of oil 1085 00:50:49,060 --> 00:50:46,940 and water but no one could say where it 1086 00:50:51,790 --> 00:50:49,070 was coming from Richard Saunders 1087 00:50:54,730 --> 00:50:51,800 president of the Australian skeptics has 1088 00:50:56,830 --> 00:50:54,740 his own theory I think people have a 1089 00:50:59,170 --> 00:50:56,840 deep need to want and hope that there 1090 00:51:01,450 --> 00:50:59,180 are indeed miracles well quite frankly 1091 00:51:04,180 --> 00:51:01,460 it looks like somebody and we're not 1092 00:51:06,099 --> 00:51:04,190 sure who it is is running around the 1093 00:51:08,380 --> 00:51:06,109 house dabbing oil and water on the wall 1094 00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:08,390 cotton bud even with their finger 1095 00:51:13,839 --> 00:51:11,570 drawing patterns they've sinned begun 1096 00:51:16,089 --> 00:51:13,849 quite overboard with it that clip was 1097 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:16,099 from very recently only a couple of 1098 00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:19,010 weeks ago 2013 here's a clip from a 1099 00:51:26,109 --> 00:51:23,770 Current Affair television show from 2008 1100 00:51:28,390 --> 00:51:26,119 there will always be non-believers 1101 00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:28,400 Richard Saunders is from the Australian 1102 00:51:32,380 --> 00:51:30,170 skeptics you know it's just possible 1103 00:51:34,570 --> 00:51:32,390 that somebody very well-meaning has done 1104 00:51:36,940 --> 00:51:34,580 this through tried to put the family at 1105 00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:36,950 ease that's very nice and a nice thought 1106 00:51:40,690 --> 00:51:39,050 unfortunately the ramifications can be 1107 00:51:43,900 --> 00:51:40,700 very serious with people believing all 1108 00:51:46,270 --> 00:51:43,910 sorts of things this weekend they expect 1109 00:51:48,730 --> 00:51:46,280 one thousand pilgrims and the police 1110 00:51:51,250 --> 00:51:48,740 will block off the street many faithful 1111 00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:51,260 will go away with tiny samples of oil or 1112 00:51:57,910 --> 00:51:53,930 charcoal which some believe has healing 1113 00:51:59,530 --> 00:51:57,920 powers well here in Australia every 1114 00:52:01,750 --> 00:51:59,540 couple of years you'll get a miracle of 1115 00:52:03,849 --> 00:52:01,760 weeping statue or oil on the wall or 1116 00:52:06,609 --> 00:52:03,859 even blood coming from somewhere there's 1117 00:52:08,710 --> 00:52:06,619 never been one authenticated miracle in 1118 00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:08,720 the history of the world ever so if this 1119 00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:18,530 those comments from me way back in 2007 1120 00:52:23,030 --> 00:52:21,450 led shortly thereafter to brendan 1121 00:52:26,109 --> 00:52:23,040 shanahan writing in The Daily Telegraph 1122 00:52:30,050 --> 00:52:26,119 newspaper to produce the following 1123 00:52:32,630 --> 00:52:30,060 tragedy of scoffing skeptics by Brendan 1124 00:52:35,270 --> 00:52:32,640 Shanahan remember the coogee beach 1125 00:52:38,630 --> 00:52:35,280 madonna this seeming apparition first 1126 00:52:41,060 --> 00:52:38,640 appeared in 2003 bathing randwick with 1127 00:52:43,190 --> 00:52:41,070 her grace in more recent miracle 1128 00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:43,200 developments a Current Affair this week 1129 00:52:47,540 --> 00:52:45,450 spoke to a couple in guilford western 1130 00:52:50,359 --> 00:52:47,550 sydney who believed that the spirit of 1131 00:52:53,210 --> 00:52:50,369 their dead son has caused their walls to 1132 00:52:55,100 --> 00:52:53,220 leak rose scented oil reporting of these 1133 00:52:58,640 --> 00:52:55,110 stories usually includes an appearance 1134 00:52:59,859 --> 00:52:58,650 by the Australian skeptics these people 1135 00:53:03,200 --> 00:52:59,869 in case you don't know our 1136 00:53:05,390 --> 00:53:03,210 self-appointed band of atheist Crusaders 1137 00:53:07,790 --> 00:53:05,400 who see it as their mission not only to 1138 00:53:10,460 --> 00:53:07,800 tell old ladies that Christ's face can't 1139 00:53:12,170 --> 00:53:10,470 appear in a bowl of dumplings but to 1140 00:53:14,570 --> 00:53:12,180 form an organization complete with 1141 00:53:18,710 --> 00:53:14,580 quarterly newsletters devoted to doing 1142 00:53:20,870 --> 00:53:18,720 so they're the god is dead bothers keen 1143 00:53:23,150 --> 00:53:20,880 not to appear motivated by a sense of 1144 00:53:24,710 --> 00:53:23,160 their own superiority Australian 1145 00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:24,720 skeptics are always careful to 1146 00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:27,330 camouflage their criticisms of religious 1147 00:53:33,890 --> 00:53:30,210 phenomena as concern for unwitting 1148 00:53:36,590 --> 00:53:33,900 victims of the alleged hoax victims is 1149 00:53:38,630 --> 00:53:36,600 in quotation marks on a Current Affair 1150 00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:38,640 the spokesman for of the organization 1151 00:53:43,190 --> 00:53:40,890 Richard Saunders was eager to reassure 1152 00:53:45,740 --> 00:53:43,200 viewers that he regarded the family in 1153 00:53:49,340 --> 00:53:45,750 Guildford is merely misunderstood not 1154 00:53:51,380 --> 00:53:49,350 bad quote I have no doubt that someone 1155 00:53:54,349 --> 00:53:51,390 with very good intentions has done this 1156 00:53:56,570 --> 00:53:54,359 end quote he said it must have broken 1157 00:53:58,520 --> 00:53:56,580 mr. Saunders heart therefore when he 1158 00:54:01,180 --> 00:53:58,530 found himself duty-bound to point out 1159 00:54:03,380 --> 00:54:01,190 that quote there's never been one 1160 00:54:06,140 --> 00:54:03,390 authenticated miracle in the history of 1161 00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:06,150 the world ever unquote he tells us 1162 00:54:10,820 --> 00:54:08,490 there's not supposedly because he likes 1163 00:54:14,780 --> 00:54:10,830 to crush the faith of a grieving family 1164 00:54:17,390 --> 00:54:14,790 but because quote unfortunately the 1165 00:54:19,070 --> 00:54:17,400 ramifications are often very serious and 1166 00:54:22,190 --> 00:54:19,080 people will believe all sorts of things 1167 00:54:25,220 --> 00:54:22,200 end quote it is interesting to note that 1168 00:54:26,630 --> 00:54:25,230 the skeptics here are happy to credit 1169 00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:26,640 themselves with a gift 1170 00:54:32,509 --> 00:54:29,490 they decry as fraudulent in others the 1171 00:54:34,670 --> 00:54:32,519 ability to see into the future after all 1172 00:54:37,670 --> 00:54:34,680 how else could someone predict what good 1173 00:54:40,700 --> 00:54:37,680 or bad is likely to come of belief in 1174 00:54:44,450 --> 00:54:40,710 something miraculous even if it is not 1175 00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:44,460 true one wonders who the real zealots 1176 00:54:48,740 --> 00:54:46,650 are here the family who believe they see 1177 00:54:51,650 --> 00:54:48,750 evidence for their sons existence in the 1178 00:54:53,859 --> 00:54:51,660 afterlife or those who feel the need to 1179 00:54:56,750 --> 00:54:53,869 contradict them on national television 1180 00:54:58,609 --> 00:54:56,760 what never seems to occur to skeptics is 1181 00:55:00,620 --> 00:54:58,619 that many who believe in miracles and 1182 00:55:03,559 --> 00:55:00,630 alike not to mention those eccentrics 1183 00:55:05,990 --> 00:55:03,569 who can't accept a barren mechanical 1184 00:55:07,730 --> 00:55:06,000 universe are quite aware that the 1185 00:55:10,039 --> 00:55:07,740 existence of these phenomena is 1186 00:55:12,410 --> 00:55:10,049 illogical and goes against everything 1187 00:55:15,049 --> 00:55:12,420 they know to be true about the natural 1188 00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:15,059 world they just don't care being a 1189 00:55:19,069 --> 00:55:16,890 professional skeptic is like paying for 1190 00:55:20,509 --> 00:55:19,079 a ticket to the wrestling only to go 1191 00:55:23,569 --> 00:55:20,519 around telling everybody that it's 1192 00:55:25,240 --> 00:55:23,579 rigged the smugness of skeptics they're 1193 00:55:28,339 --> 00:55:25,250 certainly in their own righteousness 1194 00:55:31,249 --> 00:55:28,349 more closely resembles the religious 1195 00:55:33,950 --> 00:55:31,259 fanaticism they claim to despise than 1196 00:55:36,170 --> 00:55:33,960 the concern in quotation marks for the 1197 00:55:38,319 --> 00:55:36,180 community they espouse there's no doubt 1198 00:55:41,690 --> 00:55:38,329 belief can lead to terrible consequences 1199 00:55:44,870 --> 00:55:41,700 but from what I've seen not believing 1200 00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:44,880 can be just as tragic needless to say at 1201 00:55:50,599 --> 00:55:47,970 the time that report was produced in The 1202 00:55:53,779 --> 00:55:50,609 Daily Telegraph Australian skeptics did 1203 00:55:55,599 --> 00:55:53,789 publicly reply but all in all the Daily 1204 00:55:58,999 --> 00:55:55,609 Telegraph here was simply just a 1205 00:56:01,640 --> 00:55:59,009 rabble-rousing just point scoring I 1206 00:56:05,170 --> 00:56:01,650 guess you could say I don't have to go 1207 00:56:07,759 --> 00:56:05,180 over the logical fallacies and 1208 00:56:11,529 --> 00:56:07,769 ridiculous statements in Brendan 1209 00:56:14,359 --> 00:56:11,539 Shanahan's article as far back ago as 1210 00:56:16,670 --> 00:56:14,369 2007 read about each trauma Australian 1211 00:56:18,710 --> 00:56:16,680 skeptics also appeared to give his 1212 00:56:19,789 --> 00:56:18,720 thoughts we're quite prepared to accept 1213 00:56:21,589 --> 00:56:19,799 that there are things out there that we 1214 00:56:23,569 --> 00:56:21,599 don't understand but that doesn't mean 1215 00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:23,579 that they can't be understood Peter 1216 00:56:28,670 --> 00:56:25,890 Bowditch from Australian skeptic says 1217 00:56:30,860 --> 00:56:28,680 that for a miracle to be true it has to 1218 00:56:32,780 --> 00:56:30,870 have scientific evidence to back 1219 00:56:34,580 --> 00:56:32,790 get up to become excited by you have to 1220 00:56:36,620 --> 00:56:34,590 be a true believer that is you have to 1221 00:56:39,710 --> 00:56:36,630 be somebody who's immersed Oakley in 1222 00:56:41,540 --> 00:56:39,720 some form of faith in 2007 the chief 1223 00:56:43,940 --> 00:56:41,550 investigator from Australian skeptics 1224 00:56:46,100 --> 00:56:43,950 mr. Ian Bryce visited the house and 1225 00:56:48,860 --> 00:56:46,110 wrote the following report house of 1226 00:56:50,270 --> 00:56:48,870 miracles the so-called house of miracles 1227 00:56:53,690 --> 00:56:50,280 story ran in the papers and 1228 00:56:55,550 --> 00:56:53,700 non-commercial television in early 2007 1229 00:56:57,800 --> 00:56:55,560 the story relates to a family of 1230 00:56:59,150 --> 00:56:57,810 guilford in Sydney's west who claimed 1231 00:57:02,420 --> 00:56:59,160 their son was killed in a car accident 1232 00:57:04,340 --> 00:57:02,430 to become a messenger from God some 1233 00:57:07,190 --> 00:57:04,350 mysterious phenomena have been occurring 1234 00:57:09,950 --> 00:57:07,200 at the house oil began seeping through 1235 00:57:12,590 --> 00:57:09,960 his bedroom walls and ash appeared on 1236 00:57:15,170 --> 00:57:12,600 the floor when I visited at the request 1237 00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:15,180 of channel 9 I found hundreds of 1238 00:57:19,610 --> 00:57:17,090 visitors queued up on the footpath 1239 00:57:21,740 --> 00:57:19,620 family members and friends were showing 1240 00:57:24,650 --> 00:57:21,750 the guests through the house some on 1241 00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:24,660 crutches and in wheelchairs hoping for a 1242 00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:27,210 miracle the family armeria night 1243 00:57:32,630 --> 00:57:29,450 Christians their house is decorated 1244 00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:32,640 inside and out with religious icons 1245 00:57:39,380 --> 00:57:35,730 paintings statues photographs a diorama 1246 00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:39,390 of the Nativity was set up outside local 1247 00:57:45,010 --> 00:57:41,610 Catholic priest father Michael Milken 1248 00:57:48,230 --> 00:57:45,020 speaks strongly in favor of miracles 1249 00:57:51,140 --> 00:57:48,240 nightly religious services were being 1250 00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:51,150 held at an improvised Chapel in the back 1251 00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:53,970 yard signs explained that their 17 year 1252 00:57:59,660 --> 00:57:56,250 old son Michael was killed in a car 1253 00:58:02,480 --> 00:57:59,670 accident in 2006 his utility struck a 1254 00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:02,490 power pole utility being the Australian 1255 00:58:07,610 --> 00:58:05,010 version of a pickup truck my inquiries 1256 00:58:09,590 --> 00:58:07,620 revealed there were two passengers one 1257 00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:09,600 of whom received severe head injuries 1258 00:58:14,540 --> 00:58:12,450 and was in hospital for six weeks the 1259 00:58:17,270 --> 00:58:14,550 parents and the priest claimed the 1260 00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:17,280 accident was planned and executed by God 1261 00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:20,250 in order to provide a messenger capable 1262 00:58:25,370 --> 00:58:22,650 of delivering messages to mankind and 1263 00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:25,380 our visit channel 9 could not get into 1264 00:58:31,220 --> 00:58:27,090 the house because the family had just 1265 00:58:33,950 --> 00:58:31,230 signed up with channel 7 quote we have 1266 00:58:36,410 --> 00:58:33,960 not collected any money no way we won't 1267 00:58:39,590 --> 00:58:36,420 accept it men quote the father said I 1268 00:58:42,500 --> 00:58:39,600 was able to enter the house I saw some 1269 00:58:44,270 --> 00:58:42,510 black powder on the hallway floor it 1270 00:58:45,830 --> 00:58:44,280 could be anything 1271 00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:45,840 only claimed that when they swept it up 1272 00:58:51,770 --> 00:58:49,170 it reappeared overnight in the boys 1273 00:58:54,860 --> 00:58:51,780 bedroom a substance resembling oil was 1274 00:58:57,920 --> 00:58:54,870 spattered on the walls the initials m t 1275 00:59:00,890 --> 00:58:57,930 and a cross were also written in a 1276 00:59:03,860 --> 00:59:00,900 similar substance spatters also appeared 1277 00:59:06,380 --> 00:59:03,870 on the study ceiling some say resembling 1278 00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:06,390 Jesus the family said the ash and the 1279 00:59:11,810 --> 00:59:08,730 oil first appeared 40 days after the 1280 00:59:14,660 --> 00:59:11,820 death along with the smell of roses the 1281 00:59:16,430 --> 00:59:14,670 oil was still spreading buds of cotton 1282 00:59:18,710 --> 00:59:16,440 wool were being touched to the oil and 1283 00:59:22,790 --> 00:59:18,720 used to anoint in some visitors in the 1284 00:59:24,860 --> 00:59:22,800 hopes of curing diseases one has 1285 00:59:27,980 --> 00:59:24,870 reported being cured of joint pain 1286 00:59:30,230 --> 00:59:27,990 father melon and the parents claimed the 1287 00:59:32,630 --> 00:59:30,240 boy was picked by God from birth for 1288 00:59:35,150 --> 00:59:32,640 this role a photo at six months old 1289 00:59:37,730 --> 00:59:35,160 shows some prophetic similarities to 1290 00:59:40,490 --> 00:59:37,740 Jesus his school books were littered 1291 00:59:42,770 --> 00:59:40,500 with descriptions of the afterlife bit 1292 00:59:44,750 --> 00:59:42,780 of outage from Australian skeptics was 1293 00:59:47,090 --> 00:59:44,760 interviewed by channel seven's today 1294 00:59:49,250 --> 00:59:47,100 tonight and said that for a miracle to 1295 00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:49,260 be true it had to be backed up with 1296 00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:51,570 evidence there are regular religious 1297 00:59:55,940 --> 00:59:53,730 apparitions and supernatural claims in 1298 00:59:59,180 --> 00:59:55,950 the Christian world but none has stood 1299 01:00:00,890 --> 00:59:59,190 up to real testing this does nothing to 1300 01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:00,900 stem the flow of tourists and the 1301 01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:03,690 crippled to sites such as Lords in 1302 01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:06,330 France let us examine the scenario put 1303 01:00:11,390 --> 01:00:08,130 forward by the priests and the parents 1304 01:00:14,390 --> 01:00:11,400 the implications are horrendous point 1305 01:00:16,910 --> 01:00:14,400 God have been all-powerful must be 1306 01:00:19,340 --> 01:00:16,920 capable of sending messages any way he 1307 01:00:21,350 --> 01:00:19,350 chooses why would he arranged for an 1308 01:00:24,170 --> 01:00:21,360 innocent boy to be raised by his parents 1309 01:00:27,230 --> 01:00:24,180 teachers relatives etc and then brutally 1310 01:00:28,670 --> 01:00:27,240 killed at the age of 17 the claim is 1311 01:00:30,890 --> 01:00:28,680 that the accident was planned and 1312 01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:30,900 carried out by God the driver's actions 1313 01:00:36,980 --> 01:00:34,050 were overridden God in effect turned the 1314 01:00:38,870 --> 01:00:36,990 steering wheel towards the pole if a man 1315 01:00:42,260 --> 01:00:38,880 did this it would carry a charge of 1316 01:00:44,300 --> 01:00:42,270 dangerous driving point why would God 1317 01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:44,310 deliberately caused serious head 1318 01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:46,530 injuries to an innocent third party 1319 01:00:51,230 --> 01:00:49,170 putting him in hospital for six weeks if 1320 01:00:54,110 --> 01:00:51,240 a man did this he would be jailed for 1321 01:00:55,820 --> 01:00:54,120 grievous bodily harm point the purpose 1322 01:00:58,160 --> 01:00:55,830 of the whole scenario was to provide a 1323 01:01:00,740 --> 01:00:58,170 conduit for messages between God and 1324 01:01:03,050 --> 01:01:00,750 mankind but in five months the only 1325 01:01:06,170 --> 01:01:03,060 communication received has been the boys 1326 01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:06,180 initials M T which were already known 1327 01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:09,330 this equates to two bites in five months 1328 01:01:14,750 --> 01:01:11,490 millions of times slower than the most 1329 01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:14,760 basic modem God's plan has been a dismal 1330 01:01:20,360 --> 01:01:17,970 failure God needs to get broadband point 1331 01:01:24,500 --> 01:01:20,370 the writing on the wall is at a height 1332 01:01:26,870 --> 01:01:24,510 of 1.4 meters just the height a person 1333 01:01:28,690 --> 01:01:26,880 would write on the wall the thickness of 1334 01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:28,700 the lines is similar to a fingertip 1335 01:01:34,670 --> 01:01:31,770 point the oil found on the walls is 1336 01:01:37,070 --> 01:01:34,680 claimed to cure arthritis why would God 1337 01:01:39,350 --> 01:01:37,080 place it where only a few people could 1338 01:01:42,020 --> 01:01:39,360 benefit one would think he would reveal 1339 01:01:44,750 --> 01:01:42,030 it to a Medical Research Institute so 1340 01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:44,760 that many sufferers could receive it if 1341 01:01:49,940 --> 01:01:47,730 the claims are true then the god they 1342 01:01:52,310 --> 01:01:49,950 worship must be a monster beyond cruelty 1343 01:01:54,830 --> 01:01:52,320 how priests can hold this up as an 1344 01:01:57,980 --> 01:01:54,840 example of love and caring is difficult 1345 01:02:00,710 --> 01:01:57,990 to understand but the oil and ash do not 1346 01:02:02,780 --> 01:02:00,720 really appear from nowhere if the 1347 01:02:05,390 --> 01:02:02,790 apparitions are the work of a prankster 1348 01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:05,400 then the tragedy is that the death of a 1349 01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:08,610 loved one has been desecrated the living 1350 01:02:12,260 --> 01:02:09,810 memories of the parents have been 1351 01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:12,270 corrupted by talk of messages and 1352 01:02:17,330 --> 01:02:14,730 miracles what should be a healing 1353 01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:17,340 process has been hijacked and turned 1354 01:02:22,870 --> 01:02:20,130 into an ongoing nightmare that report 1355 01:02:25,850 --> 01:02:22,880 was from Ian Bryce chief investigator of 1356 01:02:28,220 --> 01:02:25,860 Australian skeptics I'll leave the final 1357 01:02:31,270 --> 01:02:28,230 word to the parents who are asked about 1358 01:02:33,470 --> 01:02:31,280 having a camera installed in their house 1359 01:02:37,940 --> 01:02:33,480 would you be happy to put a camera in 1360 01:02:41,900 --> 01:02:37,950 the house for 24 hours oh no I don't 1361 01:02:44,330 --> 01:02:41,910 know if the church want to do it do it 1362 01:02:46,370 --> 01:02:44,340 yeah because from the chairs yeah so if 1363 01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:46,380 your church one to do it yeah do it yeah 1364 01:03:14,750 --> 01:02:48,930 yeah we do yeah yes had the church asked 1365 01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:17,100 thank you for listening to the skeptic 1366 01:03:22,430 --> 01:03:19,330 zone now been asked to remind you or let 1367 01:03:26,700 --> 01:03:22,440 you know there's a petition at ww 1368 01:03:30,030 --> 01:03:26,710 change.org to do with them telling the 1369 01:03:33,270 --> 01:03:30,040 Rockhampton Regional Council they should 1370 01:03:35,940 --> 01:03:33,280 really reconsider removing flew ride 1371 01:03:37,830 --> 01:03:35,950 from their drinking water they're going 1372 01:03:40,560 --> 01:03:37,840 to remove it yes they've heard the 1373 01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:40,570 arguments so-called arguments and I 1374 01:03:45,090 --> 01:03:42,610 don't think this is a good thing if you 1375 01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:45,100 want to sign a petition asking the 1376 01:03:50,190 --> 01:03:47,770 council to consult with the community 1377 01:03:53,820 --> 01:03:50,200 before they remove fluoride run to 1378 01:03:57,300 --> 01:03:53,830 change.org and search for rockhampton 1379 01:04:00,510 --> 01:03:57,310 Regional Council also I'm delighted to 1380 01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:00,520 say that i'll be visiting can the 1381 01:04:06,570 --> 01:04:03,370 amazing meeting in las vegas july 11th 1382 01:04:08,430 --> 01:04:06,580 to 14th this year i hope you can make it 1383 01:04:10,260 --> 01:04:08,440 Tam is always a wonderful experience 1384 01:04:13,110 --> 01:04:10,270 great to catch up with James Randi and 1385 01:04:15,420 --> 01:04:13,120 DJ Grothe and lots of good friends of 1386 01:04:17,010 --> 01:04:15,430 the amazing meeting you can get your 1387 01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:17,020 tickets and more information by visiting 1388 01:04:26,790 --> 01:04:22,330 w WM mazing meeting com can't wait to 1389 01:04:29,100 --> 01:04:26,800 see you all there but for this week this 1390 01:04:35,130 --> 01:04:29,110 is Richard Saunders signing off from 1391 01:04:37,390 --> 01:04:35,140 Sydney Australia you've been listening 1392 01:04:42,190 --> 01:04:37,400 to the skeptic zone 1393 01:04:45,220 --> 01:04:42,200 visit our website at www skeptics on TV